|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 23, 2009 12:35:51 GMT -5
Now we are at the point where I lost some of my discipline. I didn't do beats for Taniquetil and kind of winged the scene. I also stopped the page count because I had discovered that my scenes where often a page to a page and a half over the approximate number. I tried to cut a few scenes down to make them fit but the "BEATS" seemed to suffer and the pacing would be out of whack. From this point on, there is no page counting, but I stay pretty consistent with the beats and everything else.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 23, 2009 13:04:48 GMT -5
Scene 11
Almost that last straw
- Nerdanel follows Feanor as he makes his way back to his forge. She is pointing out the fact of his bad behavior and he defends himself and turns the tables on her.
<|> At the forge entrance, Feanor uses Nerdanel's own words against her<|>
*Change* Feanor is on the defense but it soon changes to Nerdanel defending herself.
"BEATS" 1. Why should I explain myself to you? 2. I'm your wife and mother to your children. I care. 3. You care for the wrong things. 4. No, It's you that has it wrong. 5. What makes you right? 6. Love 7. Love holds you back. Look at me, Finwe... 8. No it does not. 9. Then why don't you and the Valar back off?
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Feb 24, 2009 0:06:06 GMT -5
G- said: That's the thing, they live in what we would consider "Paradise"...thier own elvish "garden of eden". What daily concerns would you have in such a place? What you your activities be? Would you get bored? Would it all be fun and games? I tired to present a reasonable conflict that might have come up even in the Blessed Realm. You have so much time on your hands that to do anything in a "timely" manner would be a challenge. Time is pressing for the celebration but the only one who seems really concerned is Nerdanel. This is not spelled out in the scene outline but the sense of it is still present in the scene.According to the book they went hunting with Orme-hence the hunting scene in the orginal script which fully accounted for Nerdanal's fretting and the children's lateness and provided a perfect opportunity for Feanor to express his disdain for his younger siblings and express his dislike of his children hobnobing with their cousins and also provided a perfect opportunity for reprimand Feanor and encourage family relations. I know you didn't approve of it and had questions about what exactly is was they were hunting since you did not feel that Yavanna would approve of killing animals and there weren't any fell creatures in Aman, nevertheless Tolkien expressly wrote that they went hunting with Orme and they were excellent marksmen with a bow which may have come with ease due to the fact they were elves, but even natural talent requires practice. Yvanna would not have approved of the killing of any type of vegetation either, but there were houses, mansions, buildings and cities in Aman. The building material had to come from somewhere and land was destroyed in the building of roads, and the laying of foundations for houses, buildings etc. Man may live in harmony with the land, this does not 100% exclude the destruction of land and animals. Even if they were strict vegetarians, which I doubt, they still had to cultivate the land and build canals and waterways for irrigation. How do you think the Swan ships were built? They were made of wood which means trees were killed and hewed into the making of the ships. Look at the American Indian. They of all people in the history of the world strove to live in perfect harmony with the land. The land gave and the Indians gave back and never took more than they needed, but they still took. They still cut down trees, cultivated the land and killed animals. How did the elves make clothes? The fabric had to come from somewhere. I mean I know they had some special things like Mithriel, but still---it isn't like they had factories and artificial material like we do today and they certainly didn't run around naked, so the obvious conclusion is using animal skins and fur, though they I'm sure they used silk and wool as well. I truly, truly don't feel like it is too big of stretch to assume they killed animals and it most definitely is not a stretch to believe they cut down trees or cultivated the land. Otherwise, don't worry about the number of pages, I wasn't paying much attention to that. I am mostly looking over the outline itself to see what you were thinking. What you were trying to express, the order you wanted it in. The beats are helpful, but I can get the gist w/o them. Thank you for taking the time for sharing this information. I appreciate it. Well I think I'll be ducking out, now that I've said too much and kindled your wrath. I suppose I will be banished to Shelob's caves and forced to be subjected to torture by nine ring wraiths for the mere suggestion of hunting in Blessed Realm.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 24, 2009 12:42:43 GMT -5
Death in the "Undying Lands"? Slaying and killing before the fall? I know some arguments pro and con about such things Biblically, but this is Aman not Eden; yet Tolkien used some universal aesthetics that would have been partly gleaned from the Biblical Eden. As far as the original script, this is not; G-version is denoted at the top. ;D This would indicate that it may not follow all the outline conventions of the "original script". It is alluded to in the book, that some type of hunting was done even in Aman but there is no details at all, nor is there any mentioning of flesh being eating in Valinor. I may have to reread, but I don't remember all of Finwe's grandkids mentioned as being Orome's hunting buddies. I believe that I linked the son of Feanor that is known for hunting with Orome with Orome. Furthermore, not all of Feanor sons were primarily hunter types (Maglor, Curufin, etc). Also, with my scene structure and story logic, I have the celebration as a huge event highlighting the journey to Aman. This carries more weight (at least in my mind) than...what was it...a birthday party (honestly, wouldn't those get old with folk living hundreds and hundreds of years?) Since the occasion was to celebrate the coming to Aman and this was not something that was often done, the importance factor is raised. This would included honored guest like the Valar Aule and Orome. If Orome is at the celebration, I sure could not use him as an excuse as to why all of the kids where MIA. Feanor would be upset and mad if his kids were over playing kick ball at Fingolfin's too long or playing the Wii at Finarfin's. It's the fact that he "HATED" his brothers period, no matter what activity that his children were participating in with their cousins. Wool, cotton, linen, wild silk, bamboo, straw, stone, ram-packed-earth, clay, iron, silver, gold, copper, coconut husk, palm tree leaves, small branches pruned off of a living tree, are all things that require no "KILLING". If I kept all the large and small branches that I have cut off of trees in my front and back yard from when Hurricane Ike came through last year I could fill up three full size trucks high and running over with them (all of my trees survived, most are over 40 years old). Could you image the same thing in Aman (harvesting branches by pruning trees)? Look back over my list and tell me what is missing that would be needed for them to build and thrive that would require killing. You pick berries, grapes, apples, bananas, oranges, etc.. You gather nuts that fall from trees. Does getting honey require you to kill the bees or getting milk from killing cows and goats? I'm sorry, but I don't think that you have a valid point. Houses made of clay bricks and stone have been around for millennium; look at the pyramids and other ancient structures. If they killed in Aman, it was not because they needed to. We are talking about Aman where the marring of Melkor has not depleted the true nature of things, and where the light of the two trees shine. They may have planted but I suggest that it would be like Sam planting the seed of the Mellyrn (Mallorn) tree. No great sweating and share-cropping angst here. Maybe they were killing fell-beast in the far regions of Aman, although the book looks like it says no. How do you explain Ungoliant? Is she not on the continent of Aman? And she is hiding because...Orome and the hunters? Hum... ;D Look, we can make some changes, even modulate back close to the original script if it will flow better and make sense, but it should not be done based off of a shaky premise. Now off to Shelob's lair for YOU! ;D
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Feb 24, 2009 21:30:19 GMT -5
Whoa, there. Slow down, I said nothing about a birthday party which yes, that is what we had come up with originally, but I was not suggesting that we go back to that. I think your idea for the reason for the celebration is quite fine. I have no issues with that. As for the Undying Lands there is no reference in the Silm, the Hobbit or LoTR about animals being immortal. Only the Ainur, the Maia and the Elves. I no longer have the book available to me, it was a library book and had to be returned first in Indiana, and then in Virginia and I'm uncertain that I can lay my hands on another copy currently, short of going on Amazon to see if I can actually purchase one, but I know there was a whole page dedicated as to how they spent their time and if I'm not mistaken a reference to the fact that Feanor was displeased about the time his sons spent with their cousins save Galadriel whom he seemed to have a soft spot for. The Elves were not gods, they were more like "enhanced" men. They had sharper minds, were more cultured, had a richer history, were better skilled, but were more like unto men rather than more like unto the Ainur and the Maia. They were if you will permit off-colored comparison "the missing link" between the Ainur and Men. I don't believe they all sat around doing nothing all day, singing songs and chasing females (or males). It seems that is partially what the Noldor had against the Vanyar who opted to hang out most closely with the Valar, sitting around doing nothing all day except singing and worshipping the Valar and were the most passive. We obviously are at severe odds because you see Aman as totally and completely perfect, flawless, total and complete peaceful paradise, while I see that Tolkien's point in the whole matter is that it was not "perfect". There was death in the Undying Lands, Feanor's mother died, there was bitterness and conflict and debate that stemmed from that death. My father once told me that a girl should live with her father until she is married and then live with her husband until death and if her husband leaves her she should return to her father's house and never have a job outside of the home and spend all of time cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, sewing and tending to children. My response to him was then why do you send me to school? What is the point of spending money to educate a girl? What's the use? He had no answer and we never had that discussion again and he supported me in my career choice in later days. My point is the according to the book the Valar were teaching the Elves skills---what skills? and why? and what for? if there was no use for those skills. If you read the prologue and the letter by Tolkien in the very, very front of the Silm one thing he was very clear about is that the Elves were not "magical". They weren't Jeanie or Bewitched and just thought things into existence or wiggled their noses. They were hunters and craftsmen and builders. And later taught these skills to Men. Again I don't have the book in my hands, but Aule told Yavanna that Elves and Men would cut down trees and kill animals which is why she went to Manwe who in fact agreed with Aule. Yavanna was not as concerned for animals which she admited some could escape their fate by having the ability to flee, but her concern was for plant life which could neither defend itself nor flee which is how the Ents came to be. There would have been no need for the Ents if Yavanna were not admitting that animals would be killed and trees would be cut down. Yavanna accepted that this was something that was going to happen, she just didn't want there to be utter and total destruction. She just wanted what she had created to be appreciated. I was not implying that this was the original script. Yes, it does say G-script quite plainly, but I was under the impression based on previous conversation that you were willing to perhaps pull somethings from the previous script and possibly combine the two. I was not hinting, nor suggesting that you use the hunting scene specifically, but was rather trying to answer your question of what they did with their time. No not all of them hunted. On that page in the book to which I am referring Tolkien listed all of the children of each of the three brothers very specifically and told how they spent their time. Some of them including the female Aredhel were hunters, some of them were musicians, some of them were craftsmen and spent their time in the forge, some of them jewelers and either mined or created artifical jewels and gems. I don't see everything being all fun and games simply because there hasn't been a "fall" and by the way I never called it the Garden of Eden, although you've used the allegory in the past. As far as a shaky premise goes---Tolkien said they hunted, now what exactly it is thar they hunted we don't know because he didn't say what they hunted specifically, but I think he thought that was unnecessary. Most people know what hunting means and if you take into account the era in which he lived and wrote and the fact that this was intended as mythology for the English whose royal pass time was fox hunting and playing polo, well I dont' know I just think hunting means hunting, whether it were for sport or food or clothing or catch and release. You don't have to put it in your script if you don't want to. I'm not going to get mad or fight with you about it. You asked a question, what do they do with their time and I gave you an answer straight out of Tolkiens mouth so to speak. I'm not asking you to put anything in your script from the original. You've made it quite clear that you hated that script and everything about it and that it was so horribly terrible that you couldn't even edit it, but had to start all over again from scratch. That's fine. Yes, I agree Feanor wouldn't have approved of anything that any of his sons did with any of his cousins. Again I was not saying or implying or hinting or asking for the hunting scene to be used in your script. I was merely saying that I had used that as an avenue to bring that to the surface. Again, I think we are polarized in our views. I guess I see things as medieval and you see things as magical, unrealistically perfect, total and complete untainted bliss and honestly I don't think even Tolkien himself saw it that way, otherwise he wouldn't have put in there about Miriel dying, or the grief it caused Finwe, or the strife between the brothers, or about Aule creating the dwarves, or Yavanna asking for the Ents. The whole point was that it wasn't perfect. It was flawed and the death of Miriel was like a thread torn loose in a wool sweater that slowly unravels and the hole in the sweater gets bigger and bigger until the sweater no longer exists. I would venture to say that the Elves returning to Aman after centuries of grief on Middle Earth, were far more docile and compliant seeking rest for their weariness, rather than the reverse. You don't know what you have until you lose it. I'm not sure I know how to help you with this. I want to, but we are at such opposing views that each time I make a suggestion you shoot it down because I am trying to humanize the Elves and I am. If you make them so high that no one can relate to them, well I don't know. I think maybe you have your mind made up and just want to keep it like it is, except for some grammer and sentence structure correcting. I can do that. I will stop trying to bring some realism to it. If what you want is for it to way out in the left field fantastic, I will stop trying to center it. Fantasy is fantasy, magic is unbelievable. Some artists try to make it realistic to a point, try to make it somewhat believable and others go to the hilt making it just exactly what it is- unbelievable. The Elves I read about in the Silm were just like humans, except for one thing--they were immortal. The had emotions and they hurt and they got angry and they were jealous and envious and said and did hurtful things, they grieved and they cried and they sought revenge, and made mistakes. They were not total and complete Agape Love. Were they compassionate? I don't know? Were they? Compassion and mercy and grace imply there must be some grief or pain or sorrow that requires those things to be put in place. The "fall" was the culmination, the bursting forth of something that had been building over time. Unlike as you say in the Garden of Eden which overnight Eve screwed up and Adam went along and there you go- bye bye garden. In Aman things simmered beneath the surface for a very long time and slowly, slowly came to a boiling point that would have came to be eventually anyway, it was just aided by Melkor after his release. But the stress, the strife, the anger, the bitterness, the jealousies and envies were already present and would have erupted eventually over time. I'll be in Shelob's cave if you want me and she doesn't eat me.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Feb 24, 2009 21:39:14 GMT -5
Note:
Above post written prior to reading your PM. Found some hope in there that I possibly can be of some value to you. Will respond more later, but for now must close and get some rest. I had to work late, got home late, worked on homework, checked out the board and have not had any dinner yet. I need to grab a bite and get some sleep.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 25, 2009 15:50:54 GMT -5
Before I start, I would like to thank you for your input and challenging me on ideas, as well as making sure that we stay as true to the book as we can, while at the same time making the film version of the story palatable to the viewing audience. I may vigorously defend some points but I not trying to be overly "argumentive", it's just how I work through and discuss things. I will try to watch my tone so I won't offend you or those that decide to follow our discussion on matters "Silmarillion". Whoa, there. Slow down, I said nothing about a birthday party which yes, that is what we had come up with originally, but I was not suggesting that we go back to that. I think your idea for the reason for the celebration is quite fine. I have no issues with that. Thanks for liking the "Journey Celebration" and I apologize if I mistook some of what you said as an inference to going back to the "birthday party" concept. As for the Undying Lands there is no reference in the Silm, the Hobbit or LoTR about animals being immortal. Only the Ainur, the Maia and the Elves. I agree with the point that you make about no reference about animal immortality, but I'm just wondering how that supports or disproves anything. Men don’t live forever, neither do dwarves. Now are you are saying that because they "die" it would prove the land to be "dying" and not "undying", thus open the door for killing? What I suggested that they could have lived well without killing, which is a point that solidly still stands. ...there was a whole page dedicated as to how they spent their time and if I'm not mistaken a reference to the fact that Feanor was displeased about the time his sons spent with their cousins save Galadriel whom he seemed to have a soft spot for. From what I can recall, elves in Aman or in Middle-earth spent a lot of their time, making things (crafting in various forms), exploring, singing, dancing, learning/discussing lore, hunting, "fighting", eating and drinking. Yes, Feanor was displeased at the time his sons spent with their cousins, but I stand by the fact that the "activity" was not the issue with Feanor, it was because he hated his brothers, therefore he hated their children in part. There is a reference about him liking Galadriel. In the histories of Middle-earth (Arda) Tolkien had a story line that Feanor liked her because her hair shown like the light of the two trees. I think he asked for a few strands of it and she refused. He hated her after that. ...The Elves were not gods, they were more like "enhanced" men. They had sharper minds, were more cultured, had a richer history, were better skilled, but were more like unto men rather than more like unto the Ainur and the Maia. Are you sure about that. There are more refences about elves being mistaken as Ainur that men mistaken for elves. It could be partly because the calaquendi had the light of the trees still glowing from their faces but also their fates are bound to Arda like the Ainur and their spirits burn bright (but to a much lesser degree) like the Ainur. It is not said the same of men. They were if you will permit off-colored comparison "the missing link" between the Ainur and Men. I don't believe they all sat around doing nothing all day, singing songs and chasing females (or males). It seems that is partially what the Noldor had against the Vanyar who opted to hang out most closely with the Valar, sitting around doing nothing all day except singing and worshipping the Valar and were the most passive. Elves and men are a kin in many aspects but worlds apart in others. I would consider the Numenoreans the "advanced men" and not elves themselves. By the way, Feanor disliked the influence of the cousins and used their Vanyar's tendences as a scapegoat. Feanor (Noldor) would disapprove of his sons behaving like the cousins (Vanyar and Teleri decent). No other Noldor seemed to care at that time expect Feanor. I digress; do you remember the elves in FOTR or even the Hobbit? Frodo and Sam meet up with some on the way to Buckland and they were singing, festive, and lighthearted. The food that they had was ultra-good and beyond refreshing. In Rivendell, both in the Hobbit and FOTR, there is a banquet, singing, story telling, and merriment. What did Bilbo have to say about the elves and Rivendell? Working like regular folk or like being in Bree, the elves and Rivendell are not. In the Hobbit, when in Mirkwood the dwarves were captured, the elves were drinking wine and taking it easy when Bilbo readied the escape. What about the description of Lothlorien? I think the most involved thing there was dealing with the orcs that tried to follow the fellowship. If they are laid back in Rivendell, Milkwood, and Lothlorien, how much more would they be in Aman? It's like comparing Gondor with Numenor. As advanced, vast and strong as the kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor were, they cannot hold a candle up to Numenor at its height. So Aman being the pinnacle of all things (come on the Valar live there!) on Arda, life there can't be easily compared life in the diminished lands of Middle-earth. We obviously are at severe odds because you see Aman as totally and completely perfect, flawless, total and complete peaceful paradise, while I see that Tolkien's point in the whole matter is that it was not "perfect". There was death in the Undying Lands, Feanor's mother died, there was bitterness and conflict and debate that stemmed from that death. I don't mean to overly labor on this point but I got to make this so clear that I won't to reiterate it anymore. Middle-earth has beauty and pockets of splendor, but it is no Numenor when you ask the Dunedain. Numenor is great but not as treasured as Aman when you ask King Ar-Pharazon. Aman is great and beyond belief but not enough when you ask Feanor, Galadriel and a host of others. Why was Aman not enough? Feanor says in his speech that it is a "narrow land", implying that it is small, explored, well known and well worn. They were looking for excitement, adventure, something new and challenging. They did not have to want for anything in Aman and had nothing to worry about until Melkor was released. The did not make weapons (swords, spears) or armor until then. Feanor mentions that in Aman they had gone from bliss to woe and now they would try the other, and go from woe into bliss. He says that it will be hard work. So it would suggest that before the strife in Aman, live was easy and blissful. Yes, Finwe's wife died. That is what make his grief and family struggle so hard. It was not suppose to happen. This is the hair line fracture that finally shatters the glass. But in the book it is plain to point out that "only Finwe" had diminished bliss out of all the host there. BLISS - according to Wikipedia Bliss can be a state of profound spiritual satisfaction, happiness or joy, often associated with religious ideas of the afterlife. - according to the dictionary noun 1. supreme happiness; utter joy or contentment: wedded bliss. 2. Theology. the joy of heaven. 3. heaven; paradise: the road to eternal bliss. 4. Archaic. a cause of great joy or happiness. Where did Tolkien point out the imperfections in his narrative? Nevertheless, I don't think it was absent of flaws, the fact that the things that happened, did happen, proves that it did; not the place, but the self-aware beings that inhabited it. It proves that Ulmo's suspicions and hesitancy about things were in part, correct. I don’t want to suggest that every day for a hundred years, the young folk (still old to us; 100 to 300 years old) would sit and play around like they do in a few of the scenes. At the same time, I would not think that they would have a "9 to 5, punch your timecard" schedule. I believe that life in Aman was all about what you could craft (you would have all the time you needed) for yourself or to give to others, making and keeping relationships, sing, dancing, learning lore, learning from the Ainur and be blessed by them, honoring the Ainur, exploring (although it was a "narrow land") dreaming, etc. forever. If you read the prologue and the letter by Tolkien in the very, very front of the Silm one thing he was very clear about is that the Elves were not "magical". They weren't Jeanie or Bewitched and just thought things into existence or wiggled their noses. They were hunters and craftsmen and builders. And later taught these skills to Men. Again I don't have the book in my hands, but Aule told Yavanna that Elves and Men would cut down trees and kill animals which is why she went to Manwe who in fact agreed with Aule. Yavanna was not as concerned for animals which she admited some could escape their fate by having the ability to flee, but her concern was for plant life which could neither defend itself nor flee which is how the Ents came to be. There would have been no need for the Ents if Yavanna were not admitting that animals would be killed and trees would be cut down. Yavanna accepted that this was something that was going to happen, she just didn't want there to be utter and total destruction. She just wanted what she had created to be appreciated. Yavanna does make an appeal for protection of the plant life but would this for those in Middle-earth or Aman? I would say Middle-earth. Why? Because Aule shared the news about the dwarves with her which sparked her concern. The dwarves cannot come to Aman, save Gimbli, and neither can men, save Beren and Earendil. The dwarves are asleep in Middle-earth at the time so I think the evidence has to point to the fact that the killing and eating is Middle-earth. I didn’t go into detail in the script about, they were all descendents of the KING, royalty. King Finwe was the king of the Noldor, he married a decent of the king of the Vanyar, one of his sons married a descendant of the king of Teleri. They would have had servants. Not maids or butlers per se like regular men have, but a host of elves that out of respect for the house of Finwe, would have allegiance to them and would help them out by running errands, looking out for them, assisting them in projects and the like. What would be the big idea about who had the Kingship, when Finwe and then Feanor died, if you couldn't rally and lead people; tell them what to do? Even Thingol back Middle-earth had elves running to and fro doing his will. Do you think Luthien was working hard at a job or task most of her life? If she had a privileged life being the daughter of the King of the Grey elves, wouldn't Finwe's children and grandkids have at least as much in Aman? You may not like the laid back attitude of the elves (some Finwe's grandkids) as I portrayed them but I cannot see how you can come up with an alternative that wouldn't have a logical conflict with their environment, station, and situation. Here is the hierarchy as I see it; regular men, Dunedain, Numenoren, dark elves, gray elves, and elves of the light. Out of the light elves you have Vanyar, Noldor and Teleri. Finwe is king of the Noldor in Aman. You cannot get any higher as an elf except being Ingwe and of his house. Prince Harry's and Prince William's hard days work is way different than mine and yours and we all are humans! I was not implying that this was the original script. Yes, it does say G-script quite plainly, but I was under the impression based on previous conversation that you were willing to perhaps pull somethings from the previous script and possibly combine the two. I was not hinting, nor suggesting that you use the hunting scene specifically, but was rather trying to answer your question of what they did with their time. No not all of them hunted. On that page in the book to which I am referring Tolkien listed all of the children of each of the three brothers very specifically and told how they spent their time. Some of them including the female Aredhel were hunters, some of them were musicians, some of them were craftsmen and spent their time in the forge, some of them jewelers and either mined or created artifical jewels and gems. I don't see everything being all fun and games simply because there hasn't been a "fall" and by the way I never called it the Garden of Eden, although you've used the allegory in the past. I did not mean to smash your option or be to smarty pants about the "G" version comment but it seemed to me that hunting party part in the orginal had some extra...whatever, that would cause it to automatically be considered. As far as a shaky premise goes---Tolkien said they hunted, now what exactly it is thar they hunted we don't know because he didn't say what they hunted specifically, but I think he thought that was unnecessary. Most people know what hunting means and if you take into account the era in which he lived and wrote and the fact that this was intended as mythology for the English whose royal pass time was fox hunting and playing polo, well I dont' know I just think hunting means hunting, whether it were for sport or food or clothing or catch and release. Look, if you think that it would work better, please take a swing at it and show me when you have the time. I'm getting worn thinking about it. I can't walk down that road because I just have no inspiration for it. You feel it, you make me feel it. Sow me the money...er...scene ;D Yes, I agree Feanor wouldn't have approved of anything that any of his sons did with any of his cousins. Again I was not saying or implying or hinting or asking for the hunting scene to be used in your script. I was merely saying that I had used that as an avenue to bring that to the surface. Again, I think we are polarized in our views. I guess I see things as medieval and you see things as magical, unrealistically perfect, total and complete untainted bliss and honestly I don't think even Tolkien himself saw it that way, otherwise he wouldn't have put in there about Miriel dying, or the grief it caused Finwe, or the strife between the brothers, or about Aule creating the dwarves, or Yavanna asking for the Ents. The whole point was that it wasn't perfect. It was flawed and the death of Miriel was like a thread torn loose in a wool sweater that slowly unravels and the hole in the sweater gets bigger and bigger until the sweater no longer exists. I would venture to say that the Elves returning to Aman after centuries of grief on Middle Earth, were far more docile and compliant seeking rest for their weariness, rather than the reverse. You don't know what you have until you lose it. I'm sure they worked, planned things, labored on projects, but they would not have worried about too much or labored overlong, that was Feanor's sin. The Noldor would have learned craft from Aule, made things and enjoyed what they made. They wouldn't fixate on their work like dwarves or like the greatest of them in craft, Feanor. The Lady of the Wood would have been even more laid back in Aman then she was in Lothlorien. What great labor would Galadriel do in Lothlorien that would need attention everyday for thousands of years in the Golden Wood? How does Lothlorien compare to Valinor? We are not talking about a human life span or human frailness. Does an elf typically have more or less endurance than a man, finishes a task in in more or less time, needs more or less sleep, learn a skill quicker or slower than a regular human? A person from the 18th century transported to our time would think we were magical with cell phones, computers, cars, planes, gps, internet (google), modern medicine, weapons, etc. We can accomplish much more in week than it would have taken a year to do back in then. The elves, I believe, would have learned in their long years the saying, "work smarter, not harder". Example would be Feanor's palantiri and the cloaks, the boats and the rope from Galadriel (lembas too!). It may have been hard work in the initial making, but they eased life for those who used them after that. If you add long life to that and remove crime, sickness, pollution, war, etc. you would have way more leisure time. We basically work 5 days a week and only 8 hours a day with maybe 1 hour cleaning hour (maybe 2-3 on the weekend). We have 2 weeks vaction (in Europe 4-6) plus holidays. You can, at least I can, see a elf in Aman having at least half the work and triple the off time. That's just a crude example, but you get my point. It would be like comparing royal familes of this age to you and I...totally different worlds of work and concern. Finwe was over 4,000 years of the sun when he died and Feanor was over 3,000 year of the sun when he left Aman. I know that I have rambled on too long so I'll stop. The final point is this, I believe elves or elves, humans are humans, dwarves or dwarves. They all share some traits, interest, customs, emotions but at the same time they are different. I think people can relate to Feanor in his zeal for his dad and dislike for his brothers, Finwe's regret, Nerdanel's concern, Fingolfin's fustration, etc. There is human relatible stuff packed in. If you want them to truely be human in emotion, then why can't they goof off, have fun, be light hearted to round out the hate and angst that the others are displaying? Feanor is mad and hot headed. Nerdanel is concerned and upset. Finwe has a semi-hidden sadness Mahtan will rue the day Finarfin will regret and turn back The sons will take a wicked oath The death of the trees, the death of Finwe, the Kinslaying, leaving the two host on the Helcarxe, the death of Elenwe, the death of Feanor, the capture of Maedhros all are heavy DOWNERS. You need some relief some where and not too cheesy. Show me how. And lastly, since this is just one of many films, I did not want the elves to be too human when you will eventually have "humans' in the later movies. The elves must be human like yet "other" at the same time. Aman must be bright and light at first before the trees die so it creates a great a drop off and not just a dip. The movie Titanic had everyone happy and having a good time (on the most part) then the great tragedy. Innocence lost is more powerful than half-innocence lost or partial paradise lost. I will always value your input. I'm still struggling to improve the prologue off of what you've suggested. I know that other things in the future maybe changed because of you. Just because we don't line up on this, don't loose heart. Shelob is on a chain, don't worry ;D do I get the award for the longest post?
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 25, 2009 19:06:50 GMT -5
This should settle the view on how Aman (Valinor) was.
The Silmarillion: second edition (paper back)
Quenta Silmarillion The History of the Silmarils
Chapter One: The Beginning of Days
pages 37-38
...Behind the walls of the Pelori the Valar established their domain in that region which is called Valinor; and there were their houses, their gardens, and their towers. In that guarded land the Valar gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hollowed.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 25, 2009 19:23:54 GMT -5
The nature of Ainur, elves and men
The Silmarillion: second edition (paper back)
Quenta Silmarillion The History of the Silmarils
Chapter One: The Beginning of Days
pages 41-42
...The dealings of the Ainur have indeed been mostly with the Elves, for Ivuvatar made them more in nature to the Ainur, though less in might and stature; whereas Men he gave strange gifts...But the Quendi shall be the fairest of all earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty beauty than all my childern; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world...It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Feb 26, 2009 1:03:16 GMT -5
there were their houses, their gardens, and their towers. Where did these come from? Did they just magically appear or were they built? If they were built who built them? Are we imagining that they were built as things are built today with heavy machinery, and power tools and put up quickly, or we imagining that it took time, lots of time and lots of manpower like building a pyramid in ancient Egypt? And if there were designs hewn into the stones or jewels embedded in the stones are we imagining that it was done with power tools and whipped out like something on an automated assymbly line, or we are imagining that a artful designer with painstaking loving care spent hours hand carving the designs and embedding the jewels----not because is was hard labor---but rather because it was a labor of love---something they enjoyed doing---the "work" was not "work" but the art of creating, developing, learning, growing---a creation of the creator of which the creator was proud. Even in today's world the term "work" is relative. Most people "work" at a job that they hate and can't wait for the weekend and use the excuse that they have to because they have to pay bills and feed their families-- a few people are lucky and at least manage to find something that to do that they can tolerate and maybe even like, but not love--a very rare few find the "thing", their gift, their talent, what they were born to do, what was placed in their very soul by God before they were born, they love their "job", they are content and happy and spend hours and hours doing what they do best and lose themselves in their work, the day gets away from them and they may willingly and even unintentionally work overtime just because they've forgotten the time. We all have that gift in us, but people are so conditioned that work is this horrible thing we are saddled with and that the goal is to get the "work done as quickly as possible so we can go do what we really like (or love) to do. Most people don't even "get it" that work is not supposed to be "work". If you are doing what you are born to do, what God put in you, the desire and the talent and the skill, the work will come easy and you will enjoy doing what you are doing so much that you won't see it as work, it wouldn't be a burden, it would be pleasurable. As far as all this leisure time you speak of and vacation time and holidays---I wish. Most people I know are unbelievably stressed out because they don't have enough time for anything, let alone family and friends. It seems all we do is work. If we aren't working two jobs, we are working and going to school, or working all day and coming home and working in the home and then working in the yard on the weekends. I for one can barely find the time to go to church or read my Bible. Between work and homework, I don't have time to go the store, clean my room, do my laundry, cook my meals or pay my bills, hence living at home with Mom so she can take over some of the load for me because part of why I got sick is years of living this way and driving myself into the ground not eating because I don't even have time to stop and eat and barely sleeping. Vacation? When? The last time I went on a vacation I was 15years old and went with my parents to two weeks to Missouri. Since then I've either been working or if I weren't working for one reason or another I wasn't going on vacation because I didn't have the money to go on vacation because I didn't have a job. But if I could live this blissful life, I would write. That is what God put in me, I would be a writer create stories, my daugher she would be a painter (artist-not houses), my father he found his call, he was a mechanic and he loved it. He did six days a week, he went in early, stayed late and worked on friends and family's cars in his off time not because he had too, he wanted to, he loved it. What is "hard labor" to one is a joy to another. It's all about finding your passion. I'm not condemning some play time. Seriously, I'm not attacking your script. I was truly trying to be helpful. Somewhere along the line you asked what would they do with their time, and would they be bored or something to that effect. I don't think most living, thinking, reasoning beings, gods, angels, demons, Ainurs, elves, humans, dwarves, Balrogs what have you would sit around idily getting bored, I think given the time to whatever, whenever, however they pleased minus economic hardship, wars and death would still "find" things to do, I think they would spend most of their time doing what they loved to most reading, writing, dancing, composing, painting, planting (believe it or not while I consider tending flowers and planting a garden hard labor I actually have family members and at least one friend I can name who love doing it and tell me that is their passtime and they find it relaxing). I was just tying to come up with some things they could be doing to fill up their time. I will again agree with you that it wasn't the "activity" it was the time spent with the cousins that irritated Feanor. I think I said that in my last post, and was just saying that I had used the hunting party as an avenue to set up the conflict. We can have them together doing anything you like, we can have them together doing a fashion show or planting daisys or any other girlie thing you can think of if you are more comfortable with that, they can be playing chess or having a hula hoop contest or painting graffiti on the tapestry (I jest, please don't take offense). I don't care what activity you have them doing. The point is to have them hanging out together doing something which they find enjoyable, to tarry overlong at this "thing" whatever it may be, making pottery, or a horse fiding contest of some sort, who had the best showmanship or swimming race---tennis anyone? How about bowling or baseball or football---yeah there we go we both like football, are they allowed to have sports and competition in the land of bliss according to your rules of engagement? Any way whatever they get caught up, lose track of time, don't show up on time, Mom gets stressed, blames Dad for not being more vigilant, Dad gets mad and blames Mom for encouraging them to spend time with their in his opinion low life cousins---not in those words of course, using high language and some what subtly as you don't want Feanor to be overt in his displeasure. As far as my comment about the animals not being immortal, my point was that I personally feel that you are making way too big a deal about these animals, elevating them to a level that even Tolkien did not elevate them to, making them equal with reasoning beings. I of all people am an animal lover as you well know and most definitely do not believe in torture. I think animals are quite smart, definitely have emotions and personalities and I think when they die they go to heaven, (though most would not agree with me on that), however I still think that animals have their "place" and they humans they are not, and certainly not on a par with elves or Ainur. I think we've made much adu about nothing. Respect and appreciate animals and plant life MOST DEFINITELY, elevate them to the level of reasoning beings, not so much. But that is a personal opinion and need not come into play. It truly is not the big of deal. It wasn't about the "hunting" as much as it was about having them doing something, anything together- Roller skating if you want, or practicing their ballet performance that they are going to put on at the "party" acting out the story of their forefather coming to Aman. I wasn't saying it had to be all doom and gloom. I don't think anyone watching the movie would think it was a horrific, unbelievable, shocking atrocity that they just couldn't stomache if an animal got killed for food in Aman unless they were a vegetarian in which case they were stunned and shocked and probably refused to watch another minute of LoTR when Gollum produced a brace of coneys and Sam fried them up. My hunting scene was something enjoyable that they were doing, or was intended to be, it wasn't portrayed as doom and gloom, they were happy and laughing and bragging on Aredhel's skill, it turned dark when Feanor scolded them. I would assume that the hunting was something that was done frequently and was enjoyable because much later when Ardhel wanted to leave Gondolin it was said that she missed going hunting with the sons Feanor and it was part of what drove her to leave the safety of the city. She was bored being holed up in that city and not having any adventure. It was something she was passionate about, but it doesn't have to be in your script. Obviously Tolkien thought they hunting something and whatever it was they were hunting was fun and they enjoyed it, I doubt they were hunting something that would be fighting back because that would be dark and dangerous, rather than fun and about skill, but since Tolkien is no longer living so we can't ask him what he meant by hunting and I doubt Christopher would tell us we will invent something else for them to be doing like maybe rollor blading or skateboarding or water skiing or face painting or training grizzley bears to fetch and roll over and play dead.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 26, 2009 11:37:34 GMT -5
Firstly, thanks for the post. I'm enjoying the exchange because you are making me double check which is good.
Something that you did not mention was the nature of "Elves" that I had to reread yesterday to find. Point still stands that they were more like the Ainur.
In addressing the construction and building of Valinor and related cities, the Valar wrought almost all of Valinor before the Elves arrived. In the excerpt that I posted, it was the Valar, and the rest of the Ainur that came to Aman, who built Valmar and Taniquetil. The trees and everything were in place when the ambassadors came to see it. The major construction of Tirion and Alqualonde was of Elvish hands.
V.Y.t.1133. The Elves began building the city of Tirion. V.Y.t.1140. Tirion was fullwrought this year and the tower of Ingwë was built. V.Y.t.1165. The last of the Vanyar departed from Tirion and now only the Noldor were left in the city.
V.Y.t 1162. Alqualondë build after the arrival of the Teleri with the aid of Finwë and the Noldor. V.Y.t 1496. Alqualondë was ravaged by the Noldor under the command of Fëanor
At least 300 V.Y.t years between the completion of both cities and the Celebration that Finwe has decreed in the script.
They would work out of the pleasure and passion of it but they would not get weary and worn like we do. My dad worked many 12 hour shifts and would come home with metal shavings in his hands, so I do understand hard work. I am an IT repair dude that works at a desk 5-8 hours a day, in an air conditioned office, with an hour lunch and get all federal holidays off. My life is much different from my father's. A rock star (U2, Cold Play, etc.), movie stars (Brad Pitt, Christian Bale, etc.) and corporate executives (Donald Trump, Warren Buffet, etc.), have very, very, different work lives and life stresses. King Finwe stays in Tirion and governs (at the leave of the Valar and King Ingwe) from the building that was Ingwe's (HIGH KING of all ELVES). His life and those of his house would be different than the rest of the Elves.
You mentioned a comparison between fairy tale/magical and medieval. Almost all films in the medieval genre that I have seen (I can think of about 12 off hand), life around the king and his family did not resemble their subjects. In all the Camelot, Robinhood, Robber Baron type movies, the children do behave close to what I have portrayed in the script.
I'm not trying to get you to like the concept but I don't want you to think I just came up with a half-baked concept without putting some thought into it. You are correct about Aredhel and I can even accept changing the scene to allow her, Celegorn, and Caranthir to be off hunting (birdwatching) or whatever. I guess I'm still shying away from the hunting because;
1. It feels like the end scene of the Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe 2. Some one like me in the audience would ask, why and what are they hunting? Do elves eat meat? Catch in release would stress out the prey, why would they do that? It's not that they have to practice if they never eat meat, and if they don't ever accompany Orome back to Middle-earth to "use" their skill.
Maybe I'm over thinking people's curiousity.
My hesitation has nothing to do with bringing animals in Aman up to the level of Elves and Ainur. It's from the described view of Aman from the book -
"Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed, for the Deathless dwelt there, and there naught faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hollowed."
The very "stones and waters" hollowed? What do you think Tolkien meant by that?
But, yes, they did some "type" of hunting. I'm moved to the point of allowing hunting as a reason for delay and activity that a few of them did but not the entire squad.
The foundational reason for all the loitering and boredom is the setup as to why they left. Why would people in a land of ease and plenty want to leave? I hear it all the time from my kids. They are busy all week with school and after school activities and on Saturday, when I want to rest and enjoy being at home, I get an "I'm bored", comment from them around 1300 hours. Life has to be lacking something to get you up to make a drastic move. If I am engaged, involved, doing, working, planning, and working all of the time, then I would not be bored and want to do something else, unless it was to relieve myself of doing so much.
The Elves have a very, very small seed of discontentment way down inside. You mentioned that Melkor just helped along what was simmering underneath. This premise connects back to what Ulmo thought. They should not have been brought to Aman and the fact that maybe Feanor was correct; that they were created to have dominion over Middle-earth and to bring forth great beauty there. In the "narrow land" they would run out of great challenges and, well, become bored, even bored with some of the things that are enjoyable there. Middle-earth is the opposite of Aman.
Middle-earth has no light. Aman has the trees Middle-earth is dangerous Aman is safe Middle-earth requires hard work to make a life there Aman had almost everything already provided.
They are seeking the opposite. From having plenty, safety, and mild boredom to scarcity, danger, hard challenges and EXCITEMENT!
The death of the trees (and Feanor's quest) was just the opportune open door that many were waiting for to actually suck it up and leave. Tirion and Aqualonde were already built and there for a long time when the grandkids of Finwe became adults. They may have hunted, played Elvish Karaoke, along with spin the bottle, but the bottom line is they still "longed" for something more. How do you show that without it being an "all of a sudden" type of event?
Thanks,
G.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 26, 2009 17:52:06 GMT -5
To get back on track, all I can say is that I'll try to wiggle a hunting type thing into two of the scenes and switch a little around. It may bloat an already bloated script. It probably won't happen until I post the rest of my scene outlines and until I get back into the swing of things in April. If you have the time and energy to make the changes yourself, then have at it and I'll look hard at it once I get back. You're as bad as my sister when I try to tell her that Iron Man and the Incredible Hulk are pretty decent movies. She does not like the superhero comic movie genre except the new Batman movies. She doesn't even like the "Spidey" movies! ;D I still feel in my gut that showing the "royals" mostly laid back and taking it easy (a few exceptions) is the way to go in establishing conservation that would allude to a desire for more, or at least curiosity for something different. Wow me with a hunting scenario and other augmented scenes and prove me wrong, please. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 27, 2009 11:26:44 GMT -5
Scene 12
The Silmarils
- Finwe and Aule contemplate about going to speak to Feanor when they are both surprised by the sight of the he and the Silmarils.
<|> Feanor comes in with the Silmarils <|>
*Change* Worry about Feanor turns into joy about he has accomplished.
NO BEATS
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 27, 2009 11:45:58 GMT -5
Scene 13
The Hollowing of the Silmarils
- Feanor presents the Silmarils to the Valar. Manwe hollows them and Varda blesses them. Feanor realizes that what he made is beyond all that he hoped for. So as the day moves forward, Feanor goes from having a sure hope that his creations would be readily accepted and liked, to an even more prideful self assured attitude with an energized ego.
<|> The pronouncement of Manwe<|>
*Change* Feanor reluctantly brings the jewels to the Valar with his family present. He goes from slight uncertainty to joy and over flowing pride. Melkor goes from calmly and quietly planning for revenge to outright lust for the Silmarils and increased burning hatred for Feanor and the Elves.
"BEATS" 1. Time to go to the Valar 2. Precession 3. Honor to Feanor 4. Melkor's lust and hate 5. Manwe and Varda bless 6. Melkor with Mahtan 7. Feanor's evil prideful eye on his brothers 8. Mandos prediction
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Feb 27, 2009 12:04:01 GMT -5
Scene 14
Melkor's "what do you know about...?"
- Melkor starts planting lies and half truths among the Noldor. He starts at Aule's forge and then does so in Tirion.
<|> Mentioning the coming of "men" <|>
*Change* The fact that the Eldar should be content in Aman is changed/challenged to a desire/longing or other realms.
"BEATS" 1. Leading statements by Melkor 2. Question asked to Melkor by the Noldor 3. Wider Realms 4. Noldor response 5. Alluding to "men"
|
|