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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 12, 2004 17:09:27 GMT -5
Yes, actually, I have a problem with the idea of Thingol and Melian opening the Girdle. For one, not all Men were Good. And Thingol really didn't trust them. For two, it means you lose the opportunity for Thingol to say 'Okay, I won't kill you, I'll put you into the Girdle', which was his attempted get-out in the Lay.
I /do/ like Beren mentioning the Silmarils -- it means Thingol dragging them into the whole sordid mess is less random.
-- er, I'm assuming you're working from the Lay itself, not just the Silmarillion account, right?
One more thing: 'Minyaloke'. This, I'm guessing, is a name of your own construction. It looks to me something along the lines of Quenya for 'First Serpent' or 'First Loop', or somesuch. If it /is/ Quenya, /and/ not from the Canon, it needs to be changed to Sindarin. This is Nargothrond. Up in the North, perhaps, they would have used Quenya names, but in Nargothrond, so close to Doriath, and ruled by Finrod Felagund (who you'd better not mess up, by the by), it would have been pure Sindarin.
-- oh, and 'Adan', not 'Atan'. The idea of Daeron or Thingol speaking Quenya...
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Post by Maeglin on Dec 13, 2004 1:16:18 GMT -5
I know scarcely a syllable of Elvish, and rashly assumed a Noldorin king would use Quenyan names. Keep disciplining me on that front. I'll change it to something Sindarin (God knows what...)
I'm working from the Silmarillion, I admit. Except in the parts where it quotes the Lay, of course. I hope this doesn't disqualify me altogether...keep mentioning things from the Lay which ought to be in...
And Atan will be changed to Adan. As for the Girdle...more feedback would be appreciated. I'm willing to go back and change that too if need be.
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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 13, 2004 5:24:03 GMT -5
Righto. I'll stick around as Quenya Watch and Canon Hound. -- I mean, yes, I've only read the Lay a couple of times, but I might be able to spot a few things...
Right, the Girdle of Melian. Basically (I'm guessing you know this, I'll say it for the cameras) the woods around Doriath had been twisted by the power of Melian (Q. Melyanna, Dear Gift) into a labyrinth of, as far as I can make out, twisted trees and magic. It was designed so that a) No one could get through without the knowledge and consent of Melian, and b) Nothing of evil intent could pass through.
/This/ is why Thingol, Melian, Daeron and even Luthien were so shocked that Beren got in -- he walked straight through the Girdle without even noticing it, and Melian did not detect him. It was, as we say, creepy.
However, Thingol obviously wasn't paying attention, and in fact threatened to drop Beren into the middle of it, in an attempt to get out of his oath. The relevant portion of the Lay:
'Yet captive bound by never a bar, unchained, unfettered, shalt thou be in lightless labyrinth endlessly that coils about my halls profound by magic bewildered and enwound; there wandering in hopelessness thou shalt learn the power of Elfinesse!
Naturally, Beren wasn't too pleased about this...
'That may not be!' Lo! Beren spake, and through the king's words coldly brake. 'What are thy mazes but a chain wherein the captive blind is slain? Twist not thy oaths, O elvish king, like faithless Morgoth!...'
At this point, although it's not in the Lay, I'd assume Melian quietly pointed out that actually, putting him into the maze wouldn't help, seeing as he walked through it once already.
Oh, and that brings me to another point. When you have Melian whispering, remember that she is a Maia, and the teacher of Galadriel. If she doesn't want to be heard, she's more likely to use Mindspeech.
-- and as my Sindarin is completely nonexistent, what does Andlang mean?
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Post by Maeglin on Dec 13, 2004 9:38:29 GMT -5
Andlang means Long Sword. Got it off the online Sindarin Dictionary...
Thanks for the comments and help. I'm very relieved-I though for a moment you would eat me for not using the Lay...
And I'm being persuaded by you on the Girdle front. I'll put a belt around the earth in forty minutes, as Puck said.
Finrod Felagund is in safe hands, I warrant you...not quite as safe hands as Celegorm and Curufin though...my idols...
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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 13, 2004 11:33:45 GMT -5
You'll need to watch out with Sindarin -- those idiots in Beleriand had a habit of introducing sound changes when words are compounded. Tell you what, we'll wait to the end of the script and then ask someone who knows to edit the names.
-- um, please don't make Cel'n'Cur nice, though. Because they weren't, really, at all. I mean, Curufin tried to shoot Luthien... but I'm sure you'll pull it off.
And remember that Orodreth was an idiot
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Post by Maeglin on Dec 13, 2004 12:36:09 GMT -5
Cel and Cur nice? Why...that would spoil the fun!
The bit I'm really looking forward to writing is Curufin's "Stay inside, never go out to war, and never do anything remotely courageous, otherwise you will all die..." speech...
SCENE 16
(Finrod, wearing the silver crown of Nargothrond and mithril armour, is seated on a chair, also silver, in a small council chamber. Beren sits opposite him, on a similar chair. They are alone.)
FINROD: I need no ring to know you are Barahir's son. Your voice, your manner, your stature, your face...aye, even your somewhat begrimed apparel recalls him. You come with a story that brings wonder to my ears; and I fear that if Morgoth could hear it, Angband would ring with his laughter.
BEREN: Then you will not help me?
FINROD: Of course I will help you. I am sworn to. (He smiles thinly.) Yea, we are all sworn, all bound in a net of oaths. 'Twould be comical, if ruin were not written in it.
(Beren frowns, not understanding.)
FINROD: Hear this, Beren. Thingol desires your death-that much is plain. But in the manner of bringing it about, he has been rash, rash, and a fool. He has stirred up the Oath of Feanor.
(Flash to Feanor and his seven sons drawing their swords and swearing. We return almost at once to Finrod, looking weary.)
FINROD: The Silmarils are cursed things; as much hatred is within them as light. He that even names them in lust raises a great power from slumber. The seven sons of Feanor will lay to waste all Elvendom if any others hold and keep a jewel against their will; their Oath drives them. And now Celegorm and Curufin, the third and fourth brothers are dwelling in my halls.
BEREN: Celegorm and Curufin? They are renowned as warriors.
FINROD: (darkly) Renowned warriors, aye; and something more than that. You shall see. They have shown...friendship...to me in every need; they will show no mercy to you if your quest be told. Yet my own oath I shall keep; and so we are all ensnared.
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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 13, 2004 16:05:32 GMT -5
[Plays editor] Hmm... I'm going to twist that last scene a little, Finrod seems a little off... see what you think.
~~~~~~~
SCENE 16
(Finrod, wearing the silver crown of Nargothrond and mithril armour, is seated on a chair, also silver, in a small council chamber. Beren sits opposite him, on a similar chair. They are alone. As we open, Finrod is handing the Ring of Barahir back to Beren)
FINROD: I need no ring to know you are Barahir's son. Your voice, your manner, your stature, your face... (With a slight smile) Aye, even your somewhat begrimed apparel recalls him. You come with a story that brings wonder to my ears, a tale of true love; yet I fear that if Morgoth could hear it, Angband would ring with his laughter.
BEREN: Then you will not help me?
FINROD: (Taken aback) Of course I will help you. Even were I to forget the friendship of your family, I would not forget my oath. I am sworn to assist you. (He smiles thinly.) Indeed, we are all sworn, all bound in a net of oaths. 'Twould be comical, if it did not seem set to bring about the ruin of us all.
(Beren frowns, not understanding.)
FINROD: Hear this, Beren, and understand. Thingol desires your death-that much is plain. But in the manner of bringing it about, he has been rash, rash, and a fool. He has stirred up the Oath of Fëanor.
(Over Finrod's next speech, show the Oath from FotN in ghost-overlay, with faint sound.)
FINROD: The Silmarils are cursed things, even as they are blessed; as much hatred is within them as light. He that names them in lust, even in jest, raises a great power from slumber. The seven sons of Fëanor will lay to waste all Elvendom to prevent any other from keeping a Silmaril from their grasp; their Oath drives them, even those who would repent it. And now Celegorm and Curufin, the third and fifth brothers, and the most like their father, are dwelling in my halls.
BEREN: Celegorm and Curufin? Da told me about them… are they not renowned as warriors?
FINROD: (darkly) Renowned warriors, aye, and something more than that. You shall see, I fear. They have shown... friendship... to me when they had need of it; they will show no mercy to you if your quest be told. Yet my own oath I shall keep, and the friendship of the House of Bëor; and so we are all ensnared.
~~~~~~~~~~~
And yes, Beren has developed into a Welsh/English type. This is, after all, part of Tolkien's mythology for England. Therefore, 'Da' it is. Because 'Father' sounded /off/.
Oh, and Curufin is the fifth son of Feanor, not the fourth. Caranthir is #4.
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Elennar
Journyer
...for the world's more full of weeping than you can understand...
Posts: 50
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Post by Elennar on Dec 13, 2004 20:25:15 GMT -5
It's me again...
Maybe choose another word...
?
That bit might be a bit anachronistic...
Very well. I swear I will not kill, maim, nor shackle the Adan.
I shall take that as a compliment, due to the lack of an accompanying sarcastic smilie.
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Post by Maeglin on Dec 14, 2004 1:56:38 GMT -5
It is a compliment. Honestly. I don't use smilies, as I like to think I can get my feelings across without the help of little cartoon people...
You're right on the first point. It will be changed
The odd line about the Sun is an allusion to the Roman poet Catullus, where he says that the sun dies every night and rises again, but men have one eternal night to sleep after death. But if it confuses, I suppose I'll have to change it...
I've characterised Celeborn throughout as a bit of an upper-class twit. If you feel strongly that it jars, it'll go, but I quite like it.
Not quite sure about very well, but will not is good. We'll see.
Huinesoron, I accept your edition. Even Da, with a wrench! I like the Oath being seen with Finrod's speech over it. I emphasised Finrod's weariness and foreboding, perhaps a little at the price of his chivalry.
Thanks again for your efforts! Now for the moment I've been looking forward to...
SCENE 17
(Finrod stands upon a dais in a cavernous hall. Beren is with him, one step further down the dais. The hall is thronged with Elves of Nargothrond, some in grim black mail, some in grey robes, some cloaked and hooded. Women, too, are gatherered there, their hair running freely about. Edrahil and Andlang, among others, guard the doors. Orodreth is also one step further down the dais, opposite Beren. He looks similar to his brother, but less dramatic. His hair is cut short; he wears white robes, not mithril mail, and has no sword.)
FINROD: My people, hearken to me. But for Barahir, Lord of Men, Orodreth would stand here, not I. (He gestures to his brother.) Barahir delivered me from certain death, and I bound myself to serve him, his son, and his son's son in any need or travail. Now Beren, son of Barahir, has made his way to my halls. He is upon a quest that cuts into the Dark Lord's heart. To win Thingol's daughter, he must take a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown, and deliver it to Doriath. I am pledged to aid him; ye, my subjects, are pledged to aid me. Chieftains, gather your strength. Your King commands you.
(There is a hushed silence. Then Celegorm draws his sword. We now see him and Curufin, at the front. Celegorm is unarmoured and dressed in green; his golden curls flow to his waist. Curufin is gauntleted and covered in black galvorn mail. He is shorter than his brother, and dark. Celegorm looks like a hero; but Curufin has no such pretensions.)
CELEGORM: Be he friend or foe, whether Balrog of Morgoth, or Elf, or child of Men, or anything living or dead of Arda, neither might of the Valar nor any power of wizardry shall defend him from the pursuing hate of Feanor's sons, if he should take a Silmaril and keep it. For the Silmarils we alone claim, until the breaking of the world. Ever have we been foremost in the struggle 'gainst Morgoth. My eldest brother Maedhros nearly lost his life to the Dark Lord's torture. Our strength saved Orodreth from certain death at Tol Sirion. We hunt even now wolves on the open plains, that Sauron sends to spy upon your elf-lands. By the blood of our father and by our deeds, they are ours-and ours alone.
(He sheathes his sword. Curufin smiles and coughs.)
CURUFIN: Fine words as ever, dear brother. Now...if I might have everyone's attention...good, good. This man here, this Beren, has lost his land to Morgoth, have you not, friend?
BEREN: (surprised) Aye. Dorthonion is beyond repair now.
CURUFIN: Even so. Just as I thought. It is a terrible thing, when a fair land is trodden beneath the iron-shod feet of Morgoth's slaves. Hithlum was a wondrous fair country...so was our brother Maglor's domain...our own lands to the east...now they are ashes. (He pauses.) I only speak because I wish to make sure that Nargothrond does not suffer the same fate. (Gasps of shock.) Terrible to contemplate, is it not? The empty caverns...the broken bodies...the children and our wives taken by Orcs...(Orodreth conspicuously shudders.) Aye, even your little Finduilas, cousin...all our plans, all our valiant devices against Morgoth...all ashes. His armies are numberless; the dragon Glaurung and Balrogs mighty in power serve him. If our presence is revealed to him, however glorious our arms, they will be crushed, and Nargothrond with them; 'tis wiser, nay, safer, to bide in secret and to send out scouts; to guard the plain by stealth, not force; to strike with dart and venom, ambushes and cunning. (Pause.) I speak merely for the good of Nargothrond.
(He falls silent. The hall of Elves starts to clap feverishly. Edrahil, Finrod and Beren do not clap. Orodreth does, then stops when he notices his brother is frowning.)
ELF NOBLE: Is Finarfin's son as a Vala to thus command us to go to our destruction? Curufin speaks true!
CURUFIN: Silence. I do not incite treason 'gainst the King, my cousin...I merely aim to counsel him.
EDRAHIL: (with hand on hilt, muttering to Andlang) To counsel him? I'll be bound. The Sons of Feanor mean to send our King alone to his death, then to usurp the throne.
FINROD: (taking the silver crown from his golden head and hurling it to the ground) Peace! (The muttering, clapping and shouting stops.) Your oaths of faith to me you may break, but I must keep my bond with Beren, son of Barahir. If there be any amongst you yet free from the shadow of the curse upon us, you will not let Finrod Felagund go hence as a beggar thrust alone from the gates.
EDRAHIL: My King, I will not leave you.
ANDLANG: Nor I.
(A pause. One by one, eight Elves of Nargothrond come forward to join Finrod, Beren, Edrahil and Andlang. Orodreth stands as if rooted to the spot, looking on in disbelief.)
FINROD: Ten subjects have I still. Let us be gone.
EDRAHIL: Lord King, you forget something. (He picks up the silver crown.) Let this given to a steward till we come back. You remain my King and theirs, whatever betide.
CELEGORM: (sneering) How touching.
CURUFIN: Shhh, brother. What a pretty mess this is. Don't tell me he's going to give the crown to Orodreth?
(Finrod takes the crown and places it on Orodreth's head.)
FINROD: Here is your King.
EDRAHIL: Till we come back.
(Finrod does not answer, but strides off the dais and out of the hall, Beren and the ten Elves following. Orodreth has still not spoken. He looks absolutely stunned. He takes off the crown and fingers it nervously. Celegorm and Curufin come forward. Celegorm takes the crown from Orodreth's limp hands and places it on Orodreth's head.)
CELEGORM: All hail King Orodreth!
(There is uncertain cheering. Orodreth goes off, flanked by the brothers.)
CURUFIN: We will help you however we can, cousin. We have knowledge of the ways of statecraft.
CELEGORM: Aye. Methinks our reign shall be a long one...
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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 14, 2004 10:25:46 GMT -5
Hmmm... interesting. I'd prefer to see a little more loyalty from Orodreth -- I don't /think/ he would have taken the crown straight off, he was a steward until Finrod was dead -- but that's just me. I guess I'm really quite heavily influenced by oddlots.digitalspace.net/leithian/, the Leithian Script by P@L. Specifically, oddlots.digitalspace.net/leithian/, the second part, scene V of. Very heavily influenced, in fact. So much so that I'm not going to even touch this scene, because I'll just try to rewrite that version. Which would be good, because it's well written, but I don't know if you want to.
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Post by Maeglin on Dec 14, 2004 11:13:25 GMT -5
That script is really depressing...makes me look at the threadbareness of my own and yelp...
But I like this scene, actually. A lot.
Orodreth isn't a traitor-he's just astonished to be King, and hasn't the force of personality to stop the Sons of Feanor doing whatever they like...
Do you like the Celegorm/Curufin double act? Not that it matters if you don't, since I'm not going to change a letter of them without a lot of arguing...
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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 14, 2004 17:17:56 GMT -5
Yes, Cel'n'Cur are fine. But Orodreth... he wasn't king. He was Steward. Um... okay, maybe he wouldn't have protested at that point, but I think he should take the crown off as soon as it's put on, and stare at it.
Celegorm can put it back on his head afterwards, if you like.
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Elennar
Journyer
...for the world's more full of weeping than you can understand...
Posts: 50
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Post by Elennar on Dec 14, 2004 21:26:03 GMT -5
This one's just a giggle, nothing to change, but...
*wonders about elven curse words*
The confusing bit was "e'en that that died". More specifically the "that that".
I do like Celeborn as an upper-class twit, but the language seemed too modern.
I only speak because I wish to be sure that Nargothrond does not suffer the same fate. (Gasps of shock.) Terrible to contemplate, is it not?
Till we return.
I've finally caught up!
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Post by Maeglin on Dec 15, 2004 1:17:27 GMT -5
Alright, I'll change that line about the sun...
Is it not is probably right...I'll change that.
Till we come back is an allusion to the phrase in the Shire "till the King comes back", so it stays.
Huinesoron, good compromise. So it goes:
Finrod chucks crown on floor Edrahil picks it up and gives it back to Finrod Finrod does crown Orodreth and call him King, because he knows he won't return Orodreth takes it off Celegorm eases it back on
Poor old crown!
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Post by Huinesoron on Dec 15, 2004 8:55:11 GMT -5
It's all a big game of Pass The Crown... and poor Orodreth ends up with it when the music stops.
I like it.
And Finrod getting angry -- not something that happens a lot. This, though... well, can't say I blame him.
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