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Post by Huinesoron on Aug 30, 2007 18:01:33 GMT -5
For the record and the returning hordes (yeah, I'm optimistic!), the last post before this is scenes in need of editing. Additionally, if you have any ideas as to how the scenes before this could be edited, then please throw them in.
Thanks,
hS
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Post by tamitha on Nov 5, 2007 23:33:21 GMT -5
Hs! I made some changes to the first scene. See what you think. If you don't like it you can leave it the way you have it. Let me know what you think.
[The Ring of Doom, where the Valar are gathered in council. Melkor is knelt on the floor before them, still chained. MOVIE BEGINS] Melkor: … and I beg of you, Manwë my brother, that you hear my plea. For I vow here that if you make me but the least of the free people in Valinor, I will aid you in all your works, and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that I did to the world in my arrogance which I now regret so deeply. [Manwë looks uncertain. Rising, Nienna walks over to Melkor and rests a hand on his shoulder. Where his voice was loud, reminiscent of the discord from earlier, hers is soft, yet well projected, filling the space] Nienna: My lord, I ask you to hear his words. Long have I spoken with Melkor while he languished in the depths of my brother's halls. Much has he told me of his reasons for rebellion, and I do believe that he has spoken truly, and that he has indeed repented for bringing War into Arda, and for all the discord he has wrought. Tulkas: [mockingly, as if making fun of her, plays into his impulsiveness, maybe even makes gestures with his hands] Oh, yes, dear, sweet, Nienna, queen of mercy, please do tell us why we should believe this vile creature! Everyone knows that it was his design to destroy Arda from the very beginning, even when it was nothing more than a song of our hearts and our imaginations. Or have you chosen to forget the chaos he brought forth in the very presence of Iluvatar himself? There is no indication that he has any reason not to lie about his intentions, just as he lies about everything else. [Nienna spins to face him] Nienna: [firmly] I have told you, Lord Tulkas, that I have spoken with him at length, and that as far as I can ascertain, what he speaks the truth. Tulkas: And why should we think your judgment to be unimpaired? Too much of anything is never good. You do not have the ability to temper your mercy with justice and wisdom. You offer your pity to all without discretion. You are naïve and Manwe should take you in hand before you lead us all to ruin with your foolish hopefulness! Yavanna: How dare you, Tulkas! I little think Nienna is the foolish one! You are an impulsive warmonger! And it is your love of battle and blatant disregard for mercy that will lead us and all of Arda to ruin! Nessa: Tulkas! Yavanna! Please, if we argue thus amongst ourselves, the discord will begin again and without the voice of Melkor. [Pause. Tulkas and Yavanna look around at the other Valar. Ulmo, Nessa and Nienna avoid thier gaze, while Melkor is still kneeling, facing Manwë, but all the others glare back at them] Tulkas: [Mumbling] Lady Nienna… I didn't…I mean, you aren't…what I mean is, I didn’t mean to imply that you are foolish. I'm sorry. Nienna: [her voice breaks and there is a tear in her eye, she blinks, but the tear spills over and runs down her cheek] It is forgotten, Tulkas… I forgive you. Ulmo: Yavanna, do you think perhaps you may be too harsh. I too have my doubts about Melkor. Yavanna: No, I do not! I grow tired of Tulkas and his constant- Manwë: [Interrupting] Enough! [Everyone is silent. At a gesture from Manwë, Nienna returns to her seat. Manwë looks at Melkor. When Manwë speaks, you can hear the power in his voice, but he does not shout] Manwë: Brother of mine, look at me. [Melkor raises his head, expression penitent, and looks Manwë in the eyes. After a few moments, Manwë nods] Manwë: I see no lie in your eyes. I grant you pardon. [Melkor's eyes light up, and he tries to stand, but is hindered by the chain] Manwë: But this limit is set on your freedom: that you must be constrained to dwell within the gates of Valmar. For I see that several of my brethren… [Manwë looks around the circle, pausing especially to look at Tulkas and Ulmo] Manwë: [Continued]… still do not trust you, and thus we will not suffer you to depart beyond our sight and vigilance. Is this understood? [Melkor bows his head again, and nods. Manwë smiles] Manwë: Then I bid you welcome home, brother. Aulë will remove your chains. [Pause. Yavanna nudges Aulë, who is writing in a notebook] Aulë: One moment. [He finished his sentance with a final flourished Tengwa and gets up. He walks over to Melkor, pulling a strangely-shaped metal device out of his belt as he goes] Aulë: Right, then, let's get these off… [As Melkor exits focus in on him, his eyes narrow as he looks around and he gets an evil look on his face and grins a sly grin] [Fade to black]
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Post by tamitha on Nov 6, 2007 11:39:36 GMT -5
Hello?! Is anyone out there? Derleu? You seem to be the most active one currently. Starlight? Hs? To quote you, "Somebody talk to me, I'm lonely out here." (ha, ha) Somebody give me some input, before I go screwing around with the other scripts Hs has out there. Please and thank you.
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Post by derleu on Nov 6, 2007 12:04:47 GMT -5
Haha, I'm here a couple of times per week, but I'm not good in commenting script ideas. But I think it's great you started this. Don't give up! Huinesoron will surely get back to this. Yeah, we need much more new members. Not 5 or 10, but 50-100 or more! I'll try to advertise, make another trailer etc.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 6, 2007 12:14:29 GMT -5
Thank you! I kind of made some major changes. Not a complete re-write, but I definitely changed the tone. And yeah, I'm kind of anxious to see what Hs thinks since this seems to be his baby. It seems that you, Starlight and Hs are the main ones doing anything right now. What is your forte? Are you an artist, a musician? I like the trailers you have done so far. Keep up the good work.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 6, 2007 12:17:19 GMT -5
I'm here, I'm here. You can't expect me to be on all the time, so getting distressed six minutes after you posted is a /bit/ much.
(For the record, there's a thing at the bottom of the main page which tells you who's online at the moment. Helpful)
And now I shall read the scene. And try to remember what the original looked like.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 6, 2007 12:31:21 GMT -5
Right! Well, I have to say, it's a lot more Valar-esque. I notice you got rid of my Nienna/Melkor moment -- probably a good thing, I never was very sure about keeping that in... there's a couple of points in your version which I'd change again, but mostly for grammatical reasons. Notably this section:
Tulkas: [Mumbling] Nienna… I didn't…I mean you aren’t…you know, I didn’t mean to imply that you are foolish. I'm sorry. Nienna: [her voice breaks and there is a tear in her eye, she blinks, but the tear spills over and runs down her cheek] It's all right, Tulkas… I forgive you. Irmo: Well, I don't! I’m tired of all your-
While all very well in the original, this phrasing doesn't fit too well with the revised characterisation of the Valar (and, oh, Tulkas -- so sarcastic! I didn't think he had the brains for it). So perhaps...
Tulkas: [Mumbling] Lady Nienna… I didn't…I mean, you aren't…what I mean is, I didn’t mean to imply that you are foolish. I'm sorry. Nienna: [her voice breaks and there is a tear in her eye, she blinks, but the tear spills over and runs down her cheek] It is forgotten, Tulkas… I forgive you. Irmo: Well, I do not! I grow tired of your constant-
... ah, poor Lady Nia...
I'm also not too sure about the many 'brother' and 'sister's in there. Some of them come in without the adressee having been introduced, which could cause a great deal of confusion. It might even be better to reduce the number of Valar speaking at all -- Irmo and Nessa, I believe, don't say very much at any other point.
And, Melkor's thoughts/voiceover... I don't recall there being many/any other V/Os in the script as it stands, except the prologue, epilogue, and a couple of flashbacks (and maybe one map sequence?). So this one would stand out -- unless, of course, others are added in later. Could go either way, of course.
And please, by all means, continue to edit away! I've always been awful at editing, so I neeeeeed people like you to help out.
hS
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Post by tamitha on Nov 6, 2007 12:31:48 GMT -5
Hey there! Check your times dear. I posted at 11:33 p.m. and did not check back until 11:39 a.m. Was longer than just six minutes, but I see the confusion! I just thought maybe someone would have checked in late last night or early this morning. Don't expect you to be on line ALL the time. I agree that's just silly. Sorry for the mix up.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 6, 2007 12:34:00 GMT -5
-- aw, /darn/ it. Sorry, I just saw the numbers being six minutes apart and forgot to check the AM/PM. In /that/ case, coming back is entirely understandable.
Note to self: Learn to read more...
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Post by derleu on Nov 6, 2007 13:04:21 GMT -5
And, Melkor's thoughts/voiceover... I don't recall there being many/any other V/Os in the script as it stands, except the prologue, epilogue, and a couple of flashbacks (and maybe one map sequence?). So this one would stand out -- unless, of course, others are added in later. Could go either way, of course. Finally I found something to comment on ;-) To tell the audience all of Melkors plans would maybe break the tension to early. But here we see the difference between a script and a movie. The "evil look on his face" must involve all the things said in the voice-over, or even better, the face expression must say more than thousand words. It's a big challenge for the artist, of course. (If we find such an "artist" )
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Post by tamitha on Nov 6, 2007 13:06:01 GMT -5
@hs Okay, cool, no problem, I could have easily made the same mistake. I'm real easy going as you will learn.
I'm just glad you checked in and glad to have some input. I see your point and like the changes with the Tulkas exchange.
So help me out just a second. Do you want to cut the dialogue from Irmo and Nessa all together? The only reason I said brothers is because Nienna referred to Mandos being her brother, and Irmo is of course her brother as well. How do you suggest we handle that? I'm assuming for the most part fans will be the ones enjoying this and they should already know the background, or do you just want to cut out the reference to brother and sister, but keep the dialogue?
I'm just trying to get a feel for what's rambling around in your head so I can try to get on the same page and we can try to pull something together. Really you are better off with only 2 or 3 writers all trying to think alike w/o ever having met, but you definitely need more people to help out with the artistry, music and production end of things. By the way I checked out your song for the end credits, I like the verses and you've got a good voice too. Good job!
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Post by tamitha on Nov 6, 2007 13:19:27 GMT -5
derleuYeah, I see your point. It was just that I had a copy of the Sil lying here beside the bed and when I was editing the script I thought that somehow we should show that Melkor really hadn't changed and was pulling a fast one. It says in the book (well Christopher's version anyway) that when Melkor came out of prison that he looked around and his heart was filled with envy and that he hated the Eldar because they were the cause of the Valar coming after him and putting him in prison, but that the Vanya were too suspicious of him, and he thought the Teleri were too weak, but he saw that he could manipulate the Noldor. Sometimes in movies they will let you know what a person is thinking without there being any dialogue, so that's where I came up with the V/O, but I understand not wanting to break the rhythm of the movie. It also made mention in the book of Manwe not detecting the truth of Melkor's heart because he still thought of him as a brother and didn't get the concept of a loveless being. So if there is a way to depict this artistically w/o dialogue that's perfect. I unfortunately am not an artist. I draw pictures with my words, that's why I'm a writer. So if some one out there has the gift to put words into pictures that's fantastic and I'm all for it!
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Post by tamitha on Nov 6, 2007 22:16:29 GMT -5
@hs Okay, so with a little help from copy and paste I implemented your dialogue changes with Tulkas and Nienna. Um, ..... if not sarcasm initially we need him to come across with some kind of attitude when he is instigates the dialogue by berating her for having compassion for Melkor. The book does say that Melkor's prayers for pardon were aided by Nienna, so I like the idea of her "coming to his rescue" however inspite of the fact that Tulkas was a "warrior" type, according to the Silm he took everything in stride, what was it (?) his pride, arrogance, he "laughed in the face of danger", but Orme was described as dreadful in anger, though not as strong as Tulkas. "He is a hunter of monsters and fell beasts, and he delights in horses and in hounds;......" So maybe we want Orme to be the one to go up against Nienna instead of Tulkas? What do you think? Now, about the Prologue. Wow, it needs work, but how to fix it? I mean I actually do like it and it covers a lot of ground and I can't figure out right now how to change it, but if we can make the prologue work for us then most of the issues in all of the other scripts will work themselves out. I don't know, my computer is acting up (you know computers have a mind of their own) but anyway I was able to copy and paste scene one and that's how I worked on it, but for some reason I cannot copy and paste the prologue so I printed it out so I can get it in front of me and take a serious look at it. Somehow we need to work it out so that the Valar get introduced at that time. Just a quickie you know. Like when you have Melkor stride toward the screen followed by the each of the Valar, I don't know I'm not savy with screenplay, but if there is a way to manage it as each Valar comes toward the screen let their name and relationship scroll across the screen or just quickly appear and then disappear, i.e. Melkor The Rebellious Manwe's brother Manwe King of Valar Varda Queen of Valar Aule Master Smithie Yavanna Mother of the forest Aule's spouse You get the gist, but it would have be like just a quick flash of their face and title due to time constraints and I get that so maybe it wouldn't even work at all. But I think we need to find a way to introduce them because even though the majority of the story is about the elves, it is important for the audience to know the roles and relationships because Manwe and Varda do come into play and Aule is the father of the dwarves and Yavanna is responsible for the Ents and Orme originally brought the Elves to Aman etc. They are just so important to the back drop that I think we need to find a way to introduce them somehow. Not focus on it per se, but at least give the audience a reference point. That would solve the issue in scene one in regard to brothers and sisters. Or we can just do away with it, whatever works for you. Also in the Prologue in the very first line you refer to Iluvatar as Eru and then ever after as Iluvatar. Fans will know that Iluvatar and Eru are one and the same, but you never made that connection so I think we need to stick with one name or the other just to avoid confusion. Arda is represented as a sphere, but was not Arda flat for the majority of the story and not made into a sphere until after the Fall of Numenor? You mentioned to me cutting the part in the prologue about the lamps, not because you didn't like it so much, as it was not necessarily plot related. I think that perhaps we could gloss over it by using the v/o. Keep the part about "The most powerful of the Ainur, the Valar, undertook to shape Arda accoding to Iluvatar's designs." But stop there, keep the fly over shot, then pick up with "But Melkor built in secret for himself a great fortress in the north, from whence he came forth with foul creatures to ....(what? How do you want to say it? "...destroy the all the works of his brethren" ".....lay to waste all the designs of the Valar" "....utterly destroy the works of the Valar's hands" something to that effect) When he had fulfilled his desire to wreak havoc upon the Valar and leave them homeless he retreated to his fortress Utumno, satisfied with the destruction he had wrought. (or proud of, or content with) Keep the part about the Valar moving to the Western Sea and leaving the ruined land to Melkor (that's perfect), but you no longer need refer to the trees as a replacement of the lamps since they were never mentioned in the first place. It is enough that Yavanna created them as light for Aman. Something else that needs to be brought out in the Prologue at least the way you have it set up- You have got to find a way to establish the three oh what is the word, tribes? families? groups? of Elves. Ingwe, High King of the Elves and king of the Vanya, Finwe, king of the Noldor and Elwe and Olwe brothers and joint kings of the Teleri because they were the largest group of elves. You don't need all that detail, but it really needs to be brought out and established right out the gate otherwise nothing else is going to make sense. I mean as the viewer got into it eventually they would piece it together (assuming they are either a fan or bright enough, but if you don't know what's going on then it can be really confusing, I mean you are going to tell them that the Teleri live on Tol Eressa and about the kinslaying I assume, only later to bring them into Doriath and King Elwe who is also Teleri and the uncle of Finarfin's children, without some clarification this will mess up a viewer-I've read the book twice and still have trouble keeping whose who straight) The distinctions are really important because as we get deeper into it the focus is going to on the tribe (?) of the Noldor and each of the three Houses because it is going to be the children of Feanor, Fingolgin and Finarfin that carry the story (kind of like Shem, Ham and Japeth in the Bible if you will, if you don't catch that going out the gate, then nothing else in the Bible makes sense because you don't get it about the Jews vs the Gentiles vs the Canaanites or Arabs as we know them today) Also you made mention of the Halls of Mandos, where Namo, the Doomsman of the Valar dwelt... Mandos and Namo are one and the same, just two different names for the same person, but it comes across as two different entities. Again, same issue, I think we need to just stick with one name to avoid confusion. Just one more issue- somehow it needs to be brought to light that Finwe re-married, a Vanya nonetheless and had two sons, half brothers to Feanor. You just spring that on the viewer in scene II with no set up. I think it's important that Feanor was full blooded Noldor, but the other two had Vanya blood in them which watered down their fierce Noldor blood. Besides outright jealousy, I think Feanor saw the other two as weaker because of their mother's lineage and that played into why he did not acknowlege them as his brothers. He saw them as Vanya and not Noldor. Sorry, I know this is a lot, I hope I didn't overwhem you with too much information and I really don't have any solid solutions at this point, but these are things that jump out at me that if we can work together to resolve them will set up the rest of the scripts and help everything else fall into place a little more smoothly. We won't need to back track and fix inconsistencies. I suppose we could always fall back on flashbacks at some point instead of trying to cram it all into the Prologue, but it will still need to be brought to the surface one way or another. Tamitha
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 7, 2007 9:35:04 GMT -5
Whoosh, lots of wordies all go flying over my head... No, but seriously. There's a lot of ideas in there. Some of the problems in the prologue, I have to say, come from the fact that this version is basically a splice of two independent ones. That's why Eru speaks in the first scene, but the rest is all voiceover, and it's why he has different names. As I've said before, the Prologue as a whole needs a lot of reworking. Specifically, it needs the bias moved from the Valarin era (Almaren etc) to the Elves. We don't actually /need/ to know about Almaren (although it'll still be in there), but we /do/ need to know, as you say, that Finwe remarried, etc etc. For one thing, I was never happy with the 'but Feanor grew, and married' line. It's /such/ an awful gloss, compared with the vast detail we have at the beginning (in the original version, I think I basically rehashed the entirety of the Ainulindale -- /way/ too much, you can tell I'm a writer, not a screenwriter). (I'm skimming your post for points to comment on, here) Arda in its various forms... yes, it was flat. However, the imagery in the Ainulindale definitely suggests a sphere. It's 'globed amid the void', I believe. Compromise -- a swirling sphere of cloud, with a flat Arda in the middle? Okay, I'm going to go and have a bash at Prologue Version 3. For my own reference, what needs to be in it: -Names and relations of the Valar, or at least the top ones (Manwe, Melkor, Nienna, Namo, Yavanna, Aule, Varda, Orome, Tulkas -- incidentally, I /always/ call Namo Namo, not Mandos, which is actually a word meaning 'fortress', and refers specifically to his halls. It's been melded with his name -- as has his brother's dwelling place, giving us Irmo Lorien. Yes, I know too much about this. However, we should think about which names to use -- but 'the Halls of Mandos, where dwells Mandos' is a bit clumsy). --Actually, on that point, it might be worth the time to put in a summary of the Valaquenta in the prologue, even though it'll take up more time and make it longer, not shorter. Certainly hitting the high points... I'll see what I can work in. -Removing the specifics of Almaren -Tribes of the Eldar -The House of Finwe I think also a shot of Sauron would be good in there somewhere -- just to let everyone know he's around. [Goes forth to work on it] Edit: I've just realised: you're probably looking at the old version of the prologue. I can't remember where we edited it, but the current form (before my changes I'm about to make) can be found at silmfilm.proboards25.com/index.cgi?board=words&action=display&thread=1133178897
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Post by tamitha on Nov 7, 2007 9:53:55 GMT -5
Sorry, didn't mean to overwhelm you with too much information. I'm right there with you, I'm a writer also and not a screenwriter. Hopefully someone will come along and help us out. Please if it's not too much trouble can you post the prologue in the forum. For some reason I can copy and paste from the forum, but not from your link. If I can move it from the forum to word pad (I currently don't have microsoft word on my laptop) then I can help you work on it. Yeah, I know too much about it too! I really should get a life, but everything around me is so stressful right now that Middle-Earth is my escape. I'm familiar with all the dual names and some of the meanings, I was just concerned that some others who are not as fanatical as you and I might not be. Well, I'm off to work for now, I'll check in later this evening. Good Luck with Version 3 Prologue. Have a great day!
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