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Post by tamitha on Nov 15, 2007 19:55:45 GMT -5
Here, have a go at this. Remember, please, I am working blindly, so if I've missed the mark on characterization be patient with me. At least I've come up with something we can work with. We just need to be careful that we don't make the scene too long, but by all means feel free to move characters around, or change entire conversations. Although I would like to keep Caranthir, Curufin and the twins together. From what little information I have Caranthir is described as "the dark" and Curufin is described as "most like his father" and the twins having recently suffered their father's wrath would naturally be somewhat subdued and stay close with their older, more dark natured brothers. Finrod is described as "the faithful" so I think he would have a tendancy to be more optimistic, but I could be way off base. I just thought it most natural to have the three eldest hanging out together. I put the rest of Finarfin's boys with Turgon because the book says "These four (that of course would include Finrod) were as close in friendship with the sons of Fingolfin as though they were all brothers." With Feanor's already foul mood and disdain for not only his half brothers, but also their children I thought he would expect all seven of his boys to be together when he arrived and it would not set to well with him that Maedhros was socializing once again with Fingon, not to mention Finrod. And then the other two socializing with Ardhel and Galadriel, but do with it what you will. Oh, and you can do more with the description of the home, I just sketched it. You have more information at your finger tips than I do. I just know that it says that the Elves dug in the mountains and found precious metals and ore and jewels, so I just thought their homes would be like really gorgeous and beautiful.
Scene 4: Finwë's House in Tirion [Show Finwe’s magnificent mansion from a distance and move in on the house, it will gradually loom larger, but keep moving in through some French style double doors coming off of a huge patio(where there is an image of Finwe and Feanor embracing and Nerdanel on the stairs leading up to the house looking on-this is of course how Scene III ended, but that was a close up- now you are coming in from a distance and will just move past this scene, but it has to be in place, otherwise Feanor, Finwe and Nerdanel just appear out of nowhere). As you move into the house you see an elaborate interior, decorated for a celebration. There is lots of glass and crystal, lots of sparkle, it is a bright and cheerful scene. There is a banquet table, with lots of food. There is a huge spiral staircase with marble stairs and a golden hand rail. Maedhros, Fingon, and Finrod, the eldest sons of each family are standing together near the table, each with a cup in their hand and appear to be having a serious conversation. Maglor, Celegorm, Aredhel, and Galadriel are standing together near the bottom of the stairs talking. Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor, and Turgon are in a small group in another section of the room laughin and joking together. Caranthir, Curufin, Amrod and Amras are hanging out near the doors waiting for their father to arrive keeping a low profile and somberly watching everyone else. Indis, Fingolfin and Finarfin are together in another section of the room talking. All of this is captured in one shot as the camera moves into the room.] [Focus in on Maedhros, Fingon and Finrod first.] Fingon: So, cousin, I see you made it after all. Your Father and Mother are coming are they not? Maedhros: Yes, they will be here soon enough. Fingon: You say that with some hesitation, is your Father not in a good mood after all? Maedhros: It’s just the twins. They went rushing into the Forge as soon as we arrived home…. Finrod: Oh….from what I know of your Father I am sure that was some unpleasant business. Maedhros: It will be fine, I’m sure, Mother is talking to him. She has a way with him. Fingon: [clears his throat and looks away] Yes, well let’s hope, for Galadriel’s sake and everyone elses too. Maedhros: We shall see. Finrod: [optimistically] Don’t be so melancholy. This is my sister’s celebration. We should be joyous. Enough of this serious talk.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 16, 2007 20:03:56 GMT -5
I will come and comment on these soon -- I've read over them, and I have various things to say, but overall they're very good. However, right now I'm a very tired Noldo, so it will be tomorrow at the very earliest.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 16, 2007 21:14:51 GMT -5
Okay, no problem. I'm tired too and as I said in my last post I'm really frustrated with Scene IV. My lack of knowledge of the characters, combined with my desire to please you, combined with my intense desire for perfection has driven my frustration level to the boiling point. When I logged off last night I was so angry with my-self and my writing ability that I was ready to throw my laptop out the window, I was near tears and I had a migraine headache that was so bad I'm still suffering from it now. So I will wait patiently for you to get some rest and gather your thoughts and come at this from a fresh perspective when we both are not so tired and irritable. And, alas, I'm going to have to break your analogy a little -- if we were all sitting in a room laughing together, etc etc, I'm afraid I'd be the one sitting alone in a corner with a notebook. That's... just the sort of person I am. 'course, that's a lot easier with more people, or when no one knows who I am... le sigh. Never! I am a take charge person if no one else will step up and do it, but I perfer not to. I'm generally good-natured, but I'm not a social butterfly either, so I feel where you are coming from. I prefer being alone with a good book, movie, or writing, but I'm old school and have an immense respect for authority. The more people there are the less I will say, but with a small group I would feel a little more confident. And since you are the resident authority and we are so few in number I would never let you sit in a corner all by yourself. So you will forgive me if I get over exuburant and push you to the forefront, but I look to you for leadership and I have an immense amount of respect for you. So anyway, I'll work on not being so pushy and you work on not being so fussy and someday when this is all done we'll sit down and have a glass of champagne together, even if it is coordinated over the internet. Get some rest and we'll have a go at this later, when we both feel better.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 17, 2007 20:12:56 GMT -5
Bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, fun-fun-fun-fun-fun!Okay. I'm putting your current versions of both scenes into the Edited Version, just so I've got them up. And I have comments, of course. Groupings in the House Scene: I don't know how much thought you put into this, but it's very sensible groupings. The eldest three are together -- foreshadowing for events in Middle-earth, and also shows Maedhros as the most willing to make links with the other Houses. Maglor, Galadriel, Aredhel and Celegorm -- Cel'n'Cur (and the twins) are the hunters of House Feanor, but the other three are off by the door. Celegorm is definitely, possibly with Maglor, the most guileless of the lot of them, so combining those two facts, he can be in this company with no trouble (and remember, of course, that Aredhel left Gondolin, in theory, to see the Feanorions -- I bet there would've been a hunting trip planned!). Maglor, well, the poor Minstrel doesn't fit in very well anywhere, but seeing as one of the few undeniable facts about Lady Artanis is that she likes to sing (cf. LotR), it's very appropriate. Also Maglor is, as I understand it, one of the most like his father in terms of talent etc, so given how taken Feanor is reported to have been with Galadriel... and finally, of course, the two girls would hang around together on principle. The Orodreth-Turgon group is the team who were most opposed to going to Middle-earth, so were clearly associated... and Cur's mob by the door, you explained yourself. Which is a VERY LONG PARAGRAPH for me to use to just say 'well done'. (I won't bother noting every change, they're mostly extremely minor...) Oh, Finrod Finrod Finrod... along with issues with Eldarin psychology in general, the treatement of my Lord King of Nargothrond is one of the issues I get most hung up on. So I've reworked all his lines to make him more, well, more Finrod. I've worked with him before, you see... if I'm allowed a little self-pluggery, I'd point you briefly to www.fanfiction.net/~CloakedEagle to take a look at The Advancement of Learning... I'm afraid it's what I think of as some of my best work. Sad, really. But yes, I've revised Finrod's lines. :P I've also altered one of Maglor's to up the idea that he shares some of his father's fascination with Artanis... which dovetails nicely with 'I've composed something special!'. A comprehensive overhaul of the Feanor-Fingolfin-Finarfin conversation. It's slightly longer, and has more consistency and less of Feanor suddenly exploding for /no/ reason. Now he has a bad reason, instead. And the 'information' line is now 'All this is just pointless social frippery.' -- going back to the 'ridiculous' comment. Wait, is frippery a real word? I've also moved Indis to be with Finwe and Nerdanel, so she's not this completely silent character so much. All in all, though, I very much approve of the expanded scene. It introduces the important characters -- the eldest of the houses, Galadriel, Maglor -- and a couple who are needed in later films -- Cel'n'Cur, and Aredhel -- but doesn't try and do everyone. A lot of what I just edited was pretty much unchanged from my original, so. Onto Scene V! The laser is changed into a simple light-focussing exercise -- the equivalent of burning a sheet of paper with a magnifying glass. I've had some time to sleep on this and now I'm thinking that you did not intend for the "light" to be held inside of the jewels, although that is how it is presented in the book, but for the "light" to be "mixed" with the materials used to create the jewels so that the "light" and the jewels were all one, which may be how it is described in "The Lost Tales" for all I know. So I think I messed things up a little bit here, but it's an easy fix. Just melt down the jewel, mix it with the liquid, pour it into a mold and let it reset, test it and then perfecto-all is well in Arda. This seems to be a result of my inattention to detail, not yours. I definitely had the impression that the Silmarilli were all one, light-imbued substance. But your way makes a lot more sense -- how Feanor could be asked to break them to restore the Trees, for instance. It just seems... I dunno, too mechanical for something as holy as the Silmarils. Like, if you shake them they'd slosh around? --haha, and the text redeems me! 'That crystal was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvatar: the house of the inner fire, that is within it and yet is in all parts of it, and is its life. [...] and yet, as were they indeed living things, they rejoiced in light and received it and gave it back in hues more marvellous than before'. I think that gives textual support to the idea that the Silmarilli were infused with the light, and not just containers for it. Also, although I'm in the wrong place to check, I believe the Lost Tales do have him pouring it into the mixture. But for the moment, I'll leave the end of the scene as it is. I should be asleep a while ago, really. Oh, yes: it's a good montage. I don't think I changed anything other than the laser. Edit: Having checked the unedited version, I think my intent was for the "marble" to be a test-version of silima -- not anything to do with the actual silmarils, just a materials test. Whether this stays or not, I have to say -- if the thing can just be melted down again, it doesn't really fit the requirements of the Silm. text. I'm thinking a trait like adamantium from the X-men films here, of which someone says, 'if you ever manage to process its raw liquid form, you have to keep it hot, for if you let it cool, it becomes unbreakable'. This is something Feanor could /make/ from its component parts, but not then /reshape/. He could, apparently, destroy them -- but not work them.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 18, 2007 11:27:13 GMT -5
(Timidly peeking into Feanor's Huinesoron's Forge) Oh, good he's bouncing, this means he is in a good mood after all. Thank Manwe!
You mean.....you liked it.....for real? I can breathe again?
Thank you for the extended compliment on the groupings, yes, I did put a great deal of thought into it actually. I think I've read and re-read the page describing the families in my book to the point of having it memorized. Although that was not my greastest concern, it would have been easy to move people around.
It was the lines, for pity's sake. I was fairly confident with the Maedhros/Fingon/Finrod exchange, but when it came to Galadriel's group---I was a nervous wreck. I didn't know if you would want more depth or if it was okay to keep it light. And I was terribly unsure of having Celegorm make a joke---the book describes him as Celegorm "the fair", but I just knew you were going send Carcharoth to eat me for a snack for that one. And I was at a complete loss with Feanor and his brothers.
I've visited G'Docs. Bless you! All changes are acceptable on my end, I have no complaints. It works well. Oh and by the way Yes, frippery is a word which means "empty display" so that line is absolutely perfect.
As to Scene V- just put the end of the scene back the way you had it in the unedited version. It isn't going to make any difference. All we are doing is showing Feanor finalizing the product, most people aren't going to get the technicalities of it all anyway, but the way you had it before showed him pouring the light into the furnace so it would mix together with everything else he was mixing together. I shouldn't have monkeyed around with it to begin with. (how utterly stupid of me-if it ain't broke, don't fix it)
Only one other thing:
Orodreth, Angrod, Aegnor, and Turgon are in a small group in another section of the room laughin and joking together.
I missed putting a "g" at the end of laughing. Duh. When you have time could you fix that in G'Docs. I know I can be really stupid at times, but there's no sense advertising it to the world.
Oh, yes, I almost forgot, not to stir the pot, but on that line with Feanor in Scene III about the ruffians, can we have him say, "art, craft, music and devices" instead of "workings" just to give some credence to Maglor. If not no big deal, just a thought.
I will venture off now to see what damage I can do to the next scene.
Edit: I also read The Advancement of Learning. Kudos! I love the concept, having THE MAN, himself, show up and give a first hand account. How many of us in the real world would love to have a sit down with some historical figure. I see how very fond you are of him, and while I will of necessity have to feed him lines, I will at all times defer to you so that you can characterize him with your own style and flair. Currently I do not have anyone character that I am partial to, but that may change as write this with you. I have a tendency to develop an affinity for one of my characters as I write, but this is just a bit different, I'm somewhat impartial because these are not my characters, JRRT developed them, I'm just putting words in their mouths, so we'll see. But in your case, I thought you did really well with Parmiel (if I spelled that correctly) with capturing her innocence, her longing for a past that she had missed out on, and awe of speaking with Finrod, himself. Very well done indeed.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 18, 2007 18:43:07 GMT -5
Nah, I have absolutely no feelings either way when it comes to Cel. I think Maeglin (our Maeglin, not the Dark one) might've, but it's been so looooong since I read Leithian. I'll have to make a G'docs version of that, too... but generally I see Cel as the slightly stupid, or at least naive one who tends to follow Curufin around a lot. I always picture him as blonde, although I know he's not -- it's just that slightly Vanyarin outlook. Ah, frippery! I knew what it meant, but I have a whole host of words which I know the meanings of, but am unsure where they come from. A lot of my emotional language is dialectic from Northern England, which for some inexplicable reason isn't universally recognisable. Shocking. I'll mostly revert the Silmaril-forging scene, then. Obviously I'll cut the lines, but I think the image of him pouring the Light into the forge and then the mixture starting to glow would be very effective. /I/ think. But I can't draw, so I have to put it in words. Music for workings -- sure! I actually had an awful time with that line -- I had 'arts and crafts', but knew I needed a second pair, but there just /wasn't/ one. 'workings and devices' is just a Feanorian way of saying 'stuff'. Actually, on second thought, 'workings' is a pretty Feanor thing to say -- it's 'devices' that doesn't fit. So unless you have any objections, that line will now read 'art, craft, music and workings'. Parmiel... oh my dear blessed Parmiel. I need to do more with her, I really do. I also really need to do more with King Finrod, but I guess that's what this script's for (and you can bet that when we get to Leithian, since Maeglin isn't here to insert his viewpoint, that Finrod will be getting a full workover there, too). But Parmiel... I was on the very of suggesting a cameo for her in this script, but stopped myself in time -- she wasn't even born, hS you fool! Edit: Since you may be interested... a sequel to Advancement of Learning, entitled 'Scholar of the Vanyar', is now up on the same site. See how swiftly I work when provoked? You can find it here: www.fanfiction.net/s/3899183/1/
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Post by tamitha on Nov 18, 2007 20:29:34 GMT -5
Re: Cel, well, then good for me, because I'm pretty much on the same page with you and I can make him lighthearted and a follower, rather than a leader. I actually see Caranthir as the most evil of all the boys, with Curfin coming in second. I see Maedhros as the one and only buffer that wants to please Daddy and has his strong will, but also has his mother's wisdom and compassion. Maglor is a follower, but leans toward Maedhros rather than Caranthir and Curufin in disposition. Celegorm is a follower, but leans toward Caranthir and Curufin. The twins are the youngest and most undeveloped in character. In other words they don't have their own minds yet about which direction to go and will follow whomever they are with at the time, so. very wishy washy. They have a tendency towards being out going, but are easily crushed by their father's or older brother's tempers. So if any of that is off base then correct me and I will adjust my development of their characters.
Re: But I can't draw, so I have to put it in words.
Yes, yes, I know all about it. It is why you and I click so well. We are writers, solely. I absolutely cannot do music, no way, no how, forget it. And I cannot draw either. I must use words to describe what I see and hear in my imagination, so we will pray for the muses and the magicians to show up and save us from ourselves and our many words. Until then we must put it into words so the muses and the magicians will know what we want to hear and see when they finally show up.
Re: So unless you have any objections, that line will now read 'art, craft, music and workings'.
No objections
I actually went in and skimmed through Maeglin's version of the Leithian while I was trying to calm my-self down and waiting for you to work your magic on my failing Scene IV. I didn't see a whole lot that needed re-working, but then I wasn't doing it scene by scene and referring back to the book for every little thing like I am this either. The first time I skimmed through this script I didn't see a whole lot of problems either. But like I said when I first joined there are certain things I am looking for and as long as I see them then I am satisfied. One thing I noticed though is that he used a lot of VO and I got the impression from you that you really didn't want to go that route. Poor Maeglin, his last post at the end of the Leithian said he was off to Scotland. I guess he never came back.
That said it leads me to my next post which is my re-working of Scene VI. Now here is the thing. It is longer, which could be avoided with a VO, you will see what I mean. Another option with Scene VI is to change up some of the dialogue and cut the part where Fingolfin and Finarfin present Manwe with the sceptre and have Feanor to be the only one to present something which of course would be the Silmarils. I just didn't make the cut because I was severly changing the scene that I didn't want to throw out anymore of your work than I already had w/o your approval. The changes I've made are going to wreak havoc with the next scene, but already intended to re-work that entire thing anyway, so it is what it is.
I'm going to post this now and go retrieve my version of Scene VI.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 18, 2007 20:41:45 GMT -5
Okay, so I pulled this quote straight from the book and used it to set up the "party" at the halls of Manwe. So we could use a VO explaining this "fesival" in less words of course to set up the viewer, in which case some of the initial dialogue could be cut, Manwe's words, Yavanna's entrance, etc. etc. or like I said we could cut the F/F presentation. Or if you don't think it is too long and you don't have any major objections then we can just run with it.
“Now it was the time of festival,….” “Though all the tides and seasons were at the will of the Valar, in Valinor there was no winter of death, nonetheless they dwelt this in the Kingdom of Arda, and that was but a small realm in the halls Ea, whose life is Time, which flows ever from the first note to the last chord of Eru. And even as it was then the delight of Valar to clothe themselves in the forms of the Children of Iluvatar, so also did they eat and drink, and gather the fruits of Yavanna, from the Earth,…..” “Therefore Yavanna set times for the flowering and the ripening of all things the grew in Valinor; and at each first gathering of fruits Manwe made a high feast for the praising of Eru, when all the peoples of Valinor poured forth their joy in music and song upon Taniquetil.”
Scene 6: Hall of Valmar [A great hall in Valmar. Manwë and Varda are seated on two thrones on a dais at the front of the hall, and Ingwë and Finwë on either side of them, but there is an empty throne to the right of Ingwe. The hall is filled with Noldor and Vanyar, along with long tables of food. Maglor, son of Fëanor, is sitting on a cushion at one edge of the dais, playing the harp. From a starting shot of the dais, pan around, across the hall, to where Fëanor and Maedhros are standing. Maedhros is peering out towards the dais. Manwe motions to Maglor to cease playing the harp, then rises and his booming voice resonates throughout the hall.] Manwe: Welcome friends! It is time once again for our Festival of First Fruits. Time to offer our praises to Eru, the One and to give honor to Yavanna who has brought forth the time of harvest. Please everyone take your seats at the bountiful tables that have been prepared and let the feast begin. [show Yavanna entering the hall bathed in the golden light of Lauralin, she appears to be glowing herself.] Ah, and here is the Lady Yavanna. If any of you have song or gift to offer you may do so at anytime. Yavanna please, come, sit wth us, we have prepared a place for you. [The assembled elves open a path from there to the dais] Fëanor: [whispers] Maedhros, you did bring the box? [Maedhros takes a smallish wooden chest out of his robe, there is just a hint of light seeping through the cracks, but just a hint, not too much and not to bright.] Fëanor: [smiles, again speaking softly, but firmly and full of pride] Good. Today all will know that I alone am the Prince of the Noldor and I shall put those half-breeds to open shame. [Even as most of the present elves begin to find their way to the tables and take their seats, Fëanor and Maedhros start to move through the crowd towards the dais. Note: There is no pushing and shoving. The only contact between elves is deliberate, even in such a tightly packed space. Pan back up and in towards the dais, just as a group of Noldor (including Mahtan, Fingolfin and Finarfin, led by Noldo #1) reach it, carrying something long and thin wrapped in silk.] Noldo #1: King Manwë Súlimo… [The group bow to Manwë] Queen Varda Elentári… [The group bow to Varda] We, the Noldor of Tirion, on this day set aside for remembrance of our coming to thy land, present to thee, Lord of the Blessed Realm, this gift. [Note: keep this line, it can be the harvest festival and a day set aside for remembrance. Yavanna sets the times of harvest, so no harm, no foul] [Fingolfin and Finarfin step forward, holding the thing horizontal] Fingolfin: Lord Manwë, this is the product of the work of many craftsmen of the Noldor. Finarfin: Long was the making, and our hearts have we put into it. Fingolfin and Finarfin: We ask you now to accept this gift of thanks from all our people. [Fingolfin and Finarfin pull the silk off the thing, revealing the Sapphire Sceptre. The watching Eldar gasp as the light of the Trees refracts through the sceptre. Manwë reaches down and takes it, and smiles.] Fëanor: [speaks softly to Maedhros and gives him a sinister smile] Fools! [then loudly to draw attention to himself.] Yes, that's very pretty, I'm sure. [Everyone turns to see Fëanor jumping down from a table. As he swaggers with lots of confidence and pride towards the dais, Maedhros hurries along at his side.] Fëanor: It's certainly well-wrought, and a fitting gift for you, O Lord of the Breath of Arda, but if I may draw your attention to the fruits of my labour. It is only a little thing, too small to be a gift for someone so great as the Valar, but perhaps you will honor my efforts. [He reaches the dais and holds out a hand to Maedhros. Maedhros hands him the box and steps back Fëanor smiles, and faces Manwë] Fëanor: Behold, Lord, the Silmarils. [On the word Silmarils, Fëanor opens the lid of the box. Manwë and Varda are bathed in the light of the Trees. The camera pans back towards the back wall as Fëanor turns, displaying the Silmarils to all the elves, filling the hall with light. Everyone, even Manwe, Varda and Yavanna gasp. Show Melkor, lurking in a corner, his eyes narrow and a light momentarily flashes in them like a cat’s eyes in the dark, a shadow passes over his face and he licks and bites his lower lip as symbolic show of desire for these precious gems] Varda: Oh, Feanor, you have outdone yourself this time. May I please…[she reaches for the box, but Feanor withdraws it] Feanor: I’m sorry, Lady Varda, but I cannot part with them, for you see it is impossible for me to make more. I have exhausted the materials that I used and the strain on both my-self and my family was so great that I dare not even try. Fingolfin and Finarfin may very well have put their hearts into the sceptre, but I am bound to these gems with my very spirit. Varda: I only wish to hold them, I do not wish to take them from you, Feanor. I understand the making of things that come from your very being and that if they are destroyed can never be made again. Knowing this and considering how precious are these gems, I wish to hallow them against all evil and thereby ensuring their preservation. [Feanor relinquishes the gems to Varda who carefully removes them from the box. She cups them in her hands and holds them up to the heavens] Varda: Eru, the one, I call upon You now to seal these gem with the purity of Your Holiness and Perfection. In the name of Eru, I pronounce the Silmarils from this moment forth to be hallowed so that hereafter, no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil will, might touch them and if such an attempt is made I command it to be scorched and withered. [There is heard from the heavens a deafening clap of thunder as Eru answers Varda's call and the gems glow blindingly bright for a moment and in the aftermath, Manwe speaks] Manwe: Feanor, your efforts truly have been honored this day, but understand that what you have wrought forth is far greater than you know, for I see that the fate of Arda, earth, sea and air lay locked within these precious jewels. [Focus in on Melkor once again] Melkor: [softly to himself] The fate of all of Arda lies in the Silmarils indeed and I shall have them for my own.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 18, 2007 21:23:29 GMT -5
See how swiftly I work when provoked?
Are you implying that I lit a fire beneath you? ha, ha See I told you, I would never allow you to just sit off in a corner unrecognized. You are too brilliant. Perhaps someday I will have the opportunity to share my book with you. Although that would require the reading of TOO MANY WORDS and I have a feeling it too would become a collaboration because you would not be able to resist perfecting my work and then I would be the fussy one because it is solely my creation and not based on the work of any other so all of my characters were born out of my heart and soul and I alone know their histories and characterization. In any case, please do continue, we MUST know more about Parmiel and Lord Finrod.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 20, 2007 7:57:54 GMT -5
The Feanarions: Caranthir is most definitely the "most evil" of the bunch, but he doesn't actually do anything. He's busy harassing casari and taking advantage of atani women (cf. Haleth). Curufin, in contrast, takes centre-stage for a lot of Leithian -- which is why I dislike him so. Cel, Maedhros, Maglor, pretty much as you described them -- hence Makalaure's immense difficulty when placed in the position of Head of House Feanor for a brief time later in the script. Poor minstrel. The twins... y'know, this is why I was so eager to kill one of them off. The only character I've ever given them is that they're the most enthusiastic, and have sharp eyes. That's it. They never /do/ anything; they're as bad as Caranthir.
Leithian: the two scripts are very different in style, yes, but his has less problems woven into it than mine (probably, I have to say, because he has bucketloads more to work with). Voiceovers... yeah, I'm against them. There's one I actually requested in Leithian, which is the 'He chanted song of wizardry' poem, because there's no way that scene can be done any other way without losing the effect. But overall I prefer to do away with them. We'll see, anyway. One thing at a time.
Scene VI -- the reworking of the basis for it is a good idea, shifting to something with a textual basis. Now onto a point-by-point analysis:
-Manwe gesturing to Maglor. This seems a bit out of character for Manwe; he's not really the gesturing kind. Perhaps a nod? I'll make it a nod. -'It is time once again'. Perfectly correct, but it has that feel of 'Well, here we are again' which is inappropriate to Manwe. Actually, I think I'll just recast his entire opening speech to get the 'Manwe voice' more in place. -The presenting of the sceptre. Well, first, I've removed the reference to remembrance. It would fit, yes, but it's also confusing. So it goes. Bah-bye. The sceptre itself is staying, though, and this is why -- it's from the books. I think the sceptre is mentioned in Silm, and the Lost Tales go into the fact that it was made for him by the Noldor. So it's canonical. The reason for keeping it in is that it allows Feanor to take the approach he does here -- he gets to show up his siblings again, and what could be more Feanor than that? -Eru. I've removed every reference to this name. Eru is now variously rendered Iluvatar, the One, and All-Father, but never as Eru -- it's too confusing to use two Eldarin names except in direct association. Same reason I can call Varda 'Queen of the Stars', but would never just refer to her as Elentari. -Some reworking of various lines in the last section.
And may I say, thank you very much for writing the hallowing scene? I couldn't think of a way to do it, so I threw the whole thing into Scene VII as a report -- perfectly acceptible on stage, but very boring in a film. It also means we can cut large amounts of VII out, which is good.
Also, I really need to give Noldo #1 a name. He shows up several times, and as the only speaking character not from the books, he deserves a name.
I look forward to seeing what you'll do to Scene VII, I really do...
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Post by tamitha on Nov 20, 2007 10:12:56 GMT -5
You are quite welcome concerning the "hallowing scene", but I've had a lingering thought that I think will aid the movie. You know how in the LotR sometimes the Elves actually spoke,... well, their own language and then on the screen the words were translated. I think in some cases this would be a good thing for us to utilize as well. Having the Valar speak Quenya, like for the prayer to Iluvatar for instance and then translate it for the audience. I cannot do it, I am not well versed, but between you and Anneli, perhaps this is now a possibility.
Manwe gesturing to Maglor. This seems a bit out of character for Manwe; he's not really the gesturing kind. Perhaps a nod? I'll make it a nod.
That's fine with me I have absolutely no issues, but you may want to then take a second look at Scene I on where you have Manwe gesturing to Nienna to take her seat. That is where I got the idea from in the first place.
G'docs looks great, I love all of the changes. I absolutely love your flair. I have spent soooo much time away from writing and soooo much time in college being forced to write analytically and critically and informatively that my writing has lost all of it's flair. They discourage imagination, you know, and demand that you "back up" everything you say with "facts". Oh, but when I was young and fresh like you, my writing was a thing of beauty to behold. So yes, I am coming across a bit dry and "politically correct" and I dearly love the freshness, the imagination, the spice you bring to the characters. Very, very good. I bring the meat, but you bring the spices and the desserts.
The sceptre, yes, yes, I knew all about it and in truth I really wanted to keep it, I was just afraid of making the scene too long.
Eru, again, no issues. I wasn't exactly sure whether to use Eru or Iluvatar. Because if I understand it correctly, the Valar called him Eru and it was the Elves who called him Iluvatar, but then we are writing this from the Elves perspective, so good call. Although you left a reference to Eru in there---"Eru answers Varda"---not sure if that was deliberate or an oversight so I'm just bringing it to your attention.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 21, 2007 1:21:36 GMT -5
Okay, so here is Scene VII. A couple of things: I did not name Noldo #1, that is your dept, you know the language and understand all of the meanings. I could look it up in the Appendixes in my copy of RotK, but I don't know what you want him to be named and I would invaribly make a huge mistake, so I'm not going there.
Also, this scene is kind of long, but it is pivotal because we are bringing Melkor out of the shadows into the light for the very first time. According to the text the Noldor sucked up to him because he taught them secret ways and they were WOWed by him. It also claims that he lied and said that Feanor came to him to seek advice on making the Silmarils, but that it was untrue, because no one hated him more than Feanor. So I left in the conversation between Melkor and N #1, but made drastic changes.
Anyway the point is we have two choices. We can leave it like it is and play up Melkor and his conniving ways or we can cut the entire first part of the scene, leave Melkor in the shadows and start with him hiding and listening in on the arguement between Fingolfin and Finarfin. Your call, I'm in agreement either way.
Scene 7: Streets of Valmar [Noldo #1 is talking to Melkor in a small park in Valmar. The ambient light is, of course, Treeslight, suitable for around the mixing hour] Melkor: So, those gems presented by Feanor at the festival, were quite impressive wouldn’t you say? Noldo #1: Yes, yes they were! Feanor is the most skilled among us. Everyone has respects him. Noldo #1: It was a bit much though for Varda to hallow them don’t you think? I mean, in my opinion, that was just blatant favoritism. But then that is only my opinion. Noldo #1: Well, now that you mention it, yes, I suppose it was. Melkor: She surprised me when she included mortal flesh. Surely she cannot be concerned about the Second Born yet to come. Noldo #1: [surprised] The what? Melkor: The Second Born. Noldo #1: The Second Born? I have never heard of any....Second Born. Melkor: Oh? You didn’t know that the elves aren't the only Children of Ilúvatar. Noldo #1: We… what? Melkor: It's true. There's going to be a second race born soon, a race of weaklings. They'll be mortal, too, and have just one life – a short one – here before going off to who knows where. You mean to say Manwë hasn't told you that? Noldo #1: Well, it's the first I've heard of it. Melkor: Ah, well, don’t concern yourself with them. They are going to be weak and sickly. That is why I am so surprised that Varda included them in the prayer. They will be no threat. Unlike your race. You are too intelligent, too strong, too skilled. The Valar fear you, you know. In fact that’s why they brought you here. Noldo #1: What do you mean? Melkor: Oh, my dear innocent one, just take a look around.[He looks around and gestures to the surroundings] You elves are the ones who have developed this land, carved out all of the buildings, found the gems and ore in the mountains, created all the finery and comforts that both you and the Valar enjoy. You were brought here as thralls, to do all the work the Valar were to lazy to do. Besides, here, they could control you. Noldo #1: Control us? Melkor: Of course, here they can measure out how much you learn. Is it not I who have taught you the secret ways to develop your arts? Feanor, himself sought out my wisdom in creating the Silmarils. In his pride and arrogance he presented them as if they all his own doing, but that is another matter. Have you never considered why it is that Aule with holds from you the secrets that I so freely offer? [Noldo #1 looks concerned] Noldo #1: So, do the Valar intend to bring this…this what did call them? Second Born? Will they come here too? Melkor: [laughs] It won’t be necessary. The Valar will allow them to roam freely and inherit the land that Iluvatar intended for you. As I said they are weak and easily controlled. Their lives are short and they are unskilled. They will never pose a threat to my kin. But you really shouldn't be concerned about them, they are of such litle consequence. I have other matters to attend to, so I really must be on my way. Noldo #1 [stammering, obviously thrown by what he has learned] Oh,…yes…certainly. Melkor? Melkor: Yes? Noldo #1: Thank you for the information. Melkor: Think nothing of it. I only have your best interest at heart. I have no patience for my brother’s deceitfulness. Farewell, for now. [Noldo #1 walks out through a golden park gate, almost colliding with Fingolfin and Finarfin, who enter arguing. Seeing them, Melkor moves into a small copse]
Note:We can make the cut here leave out Noldo #1 walks.....and say that Melkor walked up on the boys arguing, pulled up short and hid away to eavesdrop, in more fancy description of course.
Fingolfin: Finarfin, he is our brother, our elder brother. We should not seek to belittle his achievements. Finarfin: It’s not his achievements that concern me, it is his arrogance. And although you may have forgotten, he has repeatedly proclaimed himself not to be our brother. Fingolfin: Whether he would claim that kinship or not is irrelevant. He is our brother, and we should treat him as such. That means we should support him. Finarfin: How can you speak so, Fingolfin? You worked hard on that sceptre, as did many others, and who will remember it? No one. They'll all remember Fëanor and his Silmarils. Fingolfin: How can you condemn our brother for being arrogant in one breath, and then show your own arrogance in the next? We, at least I, did not do it to be remembered. My intentions were to show gratitude, what were yours? Recognition? Finarfin: Oh, you're impossible. Fingolfin, you are loyal to a fault and I fear that both you and everyone you hold dear will come to regret it. Fingolfin: It is my loyalty to family that has brought all of our children together in peace and unity. You would do well to remember that you are a father yourself and should consider the example you are setting before them. You should be ashamed. If your displeasure runs so deep perhaps you should discuss your concerns with Father. Finarfin: Perhaps I shall, since you refuse to listen to reason. I only hope he will. Feanor must be stopped, before all hope for peace and unity in this house is lost forever. [Finarfin storms back out of the gate they entered by. Fingolfin looks after him sadly] [Shaking his head slightly, Fingolfin follows his brother. Melkor steps back out of the copse] Melkor: So there is strife in House Finwë, is there? So much the better. Perhaps I should pay Fëanor a visit… [Melkor exits via the golden gate. Zoom across a wide square and in through a window of a house, to...]
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 21, 2007 10:54:54 GMT -5
Use of Quenya: Obviously, almost everything in the script should be in Quenya, realistically. But I've only put it in once, with the Song of Yavanna (later). Somewhat ironically, in that case, it's being used where Valarin would be a more obvious language. I would use Valarin, actually, except that there isn't enough of it -- I've only put one word of it into the Script, and that's given to Feanor (later, again).
Generally, I've been wanting to avoid subtitles; they break the immersion into the scene, I feel. The ones in FotR, especially, were very, very incongruous. So I've only used Quenya when understanding isn't necessary -- in songs, basically. I suppose I could put an untranslated line into Varda's prayer (I can actually do Quenya, if I have my notes handy)... I'unno.
Manwe and gestures: You may well be right. The thing I'm constantly trying to keep in mind is that the Valar act differently between themselves than to the Eldar. So it's perfectly normal for Manwe to gesture to his cousin (eh, ish) Nienna, but to an elf? The Sky-King is good, but very much aloof.
Eru and Iluvatar: As I understand it, Eru is the sacred Name of the One, while Iluvatar is his title (All-Father). It's like the biblical use of YHWH and Adonai. The Name of Eru would only be invoked on very sacred occasions -- weddings, I think, are one. Varda's prayer would indeed be another, and the Oath of Feanor and his sons is a third (which caused a great deal of shock among the Noldor, let me tell you -- by invoking His Name, you are basically saying that if you do not do what you have vowed, Eru Himself will be turned against you. It's one reason why the Sons of Feanor could never forsake their vow)... but it's confusing. If Varda is shown to speak Quenya (Ai Eru Iluvatar Aran Eo...) then she could say Eru, but in the same way I've not used Quenya names for the characters (not even Galadriel, who didn't have any form of that name until she met Celeborn), we've so far been using only one name for the All-Father. I'unno, again. Decision needs making.
Noldo #1: His name is now Pityacano, which means 'Small Commander', which is the closest I can get to 'Bit-part'. His mother clearly doesn't like him much. :P
The scene... well, we'll see what I think. Actually, I've finally come to a decision on how we can keep the scene without having Melkor slink off to hide in the trees (as if he would!): by putting the two conversations on opposite sides of the copse. To be honest, having him slip away is as stage-inspired as Oberon pulling his cloak closed and announcing, "I am invisible!". All very well, but not necessary when we can change camera angles. So I'll edit that as and when I get to it. Because you're right, we do need to keep that conversation with Pityacano in, or else Melkor never gets revealed properly.
Edits: -Melkor's words altered to make him more deceptive, less blatant. -Some fiddling of Pityacano, mostly to make him respond to Melkor's altered words. -Switch of position of the Finwions' argument. -Some altered phrasing. -... yeah, that's it.
Nothing particularly major, just some altering of the lines. I'm still not sure about Finarfin, though... he goes from this hot-tempered fellow to the only one of House Finwe sane enough to return to Valinor. Something needs to be done about him.
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Post by derleu on Nov 21, 2007 12:46:55 GMT -5
Use of Quenya:
On the one hand it would be nice to have some Quenya here and there, because it was Tolkien's biggest passion (he wrote stories for languages), maybe also showing some writings of Feanor who invented the Tengwar. But then it is also dangerous to make experiments with Quenya in a time when this language was still changing. So there should be different forms of the words in different parts of the story. It can only be wrong trying to reconstruct forms etc. Later on (second movie and later) it's probably easier, because then classical Quenya which is quite well-known through Tolkien's writings was more like a dead language like Latin or classical Greek and didn't change very much. But then the same goes for Sindarin which was divided in different dialects etc. (Thingol didn't speak classical Sindarin). Very difficult, much more difficult than the use of Quenya/Sindarin in LotR.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 21, 2007 19:57:17 GMT -5
Use of Quenya: Okay, whoa! Bad, Tamitha, bad! Forget it, sorry I suggested it, bad idea. Just scratch that. Let's pretend I never opened that can of worms shall we. Next subject please.
Manwe and gestures: Okay cool. Hey, it's your script, just doing my job as an editor, pointing out possible errors and/or oversights. Personally I think it's fine as is, just wasn't sure if you were or not.
Eru and Iluvatar: I have no issues whatsoever. Leave it as Iluvatar, seriously, I think we had this discussion once before and settled on Iluvatar. You are right, we can't keep switching back and forth, it's too confusing. I just got caught up in particulars of the Valar using one name and the Elves using another. Note to self: Must stop being so technical.
I'm still not sure about Finarfin, though... he goes from this hot-tempered fellow to the only one of House Finwe sane enough to return to Valinor. Something needs to be done about him.
Ahh! Finally, something I can sink my teeth into. This we must discuss. How exactly to handle Finarfin. I've pretty much left him alone, because I didn't want stir up your wrath, but now here we are....
The text says: "Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest and the most wise of heart; and afterwards he was a friend to the sons of Olwe, lord of the Teleri and had to wife Earwen, the swan-maiden of Alqualonde, Olwe's daughter."
This quote is why I portrayed Fingolfin as loyal to a fault, which you accepted and I'm grateful.
But Finarfin-he is the most fair, I interpret that as mild mannered, gentle, meek, that is why he didn't fly off the handle when Feanor called Galadriel's birthday party ridiculous. Of course we used Finwe and Fingolfin to rescue him, but his lack of response speaks volumes as it should. While in Scene VII I've allowed him to be angry, I believe it is more frustration on his part than being hot tempered. I tried to subtly bring out that "he was the most wise of heart" by having him tell Fingolfin that he won't listen to reason, and by saying he hoped his Father would listen to reason and by his predictions that Fingolfin's loved ones were going to regret his fidelity and that the peace of the house would forever be lost if Feanor wasn't stopped. Yes, he was as you say, the only one sane enough to return to Valinor, but that is because "he was the most wise of heart". I suppose we could tweak his lines, or use directors notes to clarify voice inflection, or tone down his actions so that he doesn't appear to be enraged, just frustrated, a rat caught on a sinking ship, that he cannot stop its sinking and NO ONE'S listening. Also apparently he was a frequent visitor of Tol Eressa, because the Teleri did not come frequently, if ever to Aman. The only way for him to befriend Olwe and marry his daughter was if he hung around on Tol Eressa. And while I will grant you that the Teleri were not as mild mannered as the Vanyar, they were still a genteel and peaceful people, so Finarfin would actually feel more at home among them than he would the Noldor, who were more... shall we say ...passionate from the very beginning which later led them to open aggression. This will also play into how heavy a toll the Kinslaying was upon him. His heart was quite broken by the whole nasty affair.
So, there it is. Now you know how I see Finarfin and how I would like to develop his character, but of course I will wait to see how you see him and if we are worlds apart perhaps we can find some kind of compromise for the poor little fellow. I really don't think he is weak, although in the face of high spirited Feanor, and valiant Fingolfin, his wisdom could appear so. But wisdom has it's own strengths, like withstanding peer pressure while everyone else is jumping off of cliff, referring of course to going back to Valinor instead of caving in, even to the begging of his own children, to run head long into certain death..... well death such as it is where elves are concerned. Anyway the point being he isn't a wimp, no matter what everyone else says about him. He just has a gentle, quiet strength.
I guess I've found my pet peeve, just as Finrod is yours.
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