This probably isn't the correct place to put this, but I'm here in Rivendell safe and sound. I am currently using the computer at the school library and do not know how frequently I will be able to log on, but I will check in as often as I can.
@hs "Fuss, fuss, fuss" What happened to Scene 10? I checked Gdocs and you just stopped at Scene 9. Did you lose interest? Or did I damage it beyond all hope of repair? I'm not sure when I will be able to get back on, so don't dispair if it is a few days before you hear back from me.
Merry Christmas EVERYONE!
Last Edit: Dec 13, 2007 14:02:23 GMT -5 by tamitha
Post by Huinesoron on Dec 15, 2007 18:31:47 GMT -5
It would be most accurate to say I 'lost interest', but only temporarily. I do intend to work on 10, but without you to prompt me... :P There's also the fact that the cycles of time have moved on, and my, ehm, writing interest has switched back to another area of interest. I only have three or four areas to cycle through, so it oughtn't be too long before I get back into LotR/Silm mode.
(Yes, I'm weird. I know)
~He came never back among the people of the Elves~
Well, there is no rush I suppose at this juncture. But I am here and I am prompting. I haven't worked on Scene 11 because I didn't really see the point until I can get into a position to be able to get on-line on a regular basis.
Yes, I will admit that is different for a writer. Cycles? I have been a die-hard fiction/fantasy writer, with a bit of mystery and horror thrown in here and there, but I just have never been able to get into anything else. At least not as a writer, I can read other material and enjoy it, but my brain isn't wired to dream up and imagine other genres.
So we will be patient with each other while you cycle and I look for a job so I can afford to pay for internet at home. We'll see who gets here first, you with Scene 10 or me with Scene 11, but if I get here first then you will have to catch up and I know how you hate "TOO MANY READING".
Last Edit: Dec 21, 2007 20:51:02 GMT -5 by tamitha
Post by Glorfindel on Dec 20, 2007 16:51:29 GMT -5
Now here I come out of no where with my two cents about the script and the scenes that people have labored so long to construct and sow "discord" into the melody.
This is how I've felt about responding to what I have read concerning "FoTN". PLEASE, tell me if you rather hear my concerns after the script in complete. I would totally understand.
I am reluctant to pick at any points at this time but I am moved to continue something that I stated on another post that dealt with characterizations. So let me speak to few points and I will cease until instructed to do otherwise.
First, I must say that I do like much of the prologue and with the right imagery and pacing, it should come off nicely.
Secondly, I still have a hard time swallowing the dialog between certain characters. It seems so sitcom-soap opera. Let me preference this by saying that I have gotten through only the first two scenes. I guess my problem stems from my impression on who they are as individuals. The Valar dialog seems a tad weak. No wonder the Noldor were ready to leave The Undying Lands if this if what they had to deal with. I would have gitty-upped on out of there too. Specifically, Tulkas getting shun like a teenager and Nienna weeping at "his words" (she weeps for the suffering of Arda) sounds like a "Young Hercules" or "Hannah Montana" episode. I'm not saying that the conflict or the tension is out of order, just the phrasing or expression. Aulë is presented as too absent minded and like a bumbling professor. I always thought Aule more dwarven in nature since he created them and I wouldn't have guessed that "the god" of dwarves would behalf as out of sorts as that. The "gods" are flawed kind of sub-thread is too prevalent here.
Lastly, Feanor seems, to me, to be too weak and bumbling. I never got the impression that he would sound so out of sorts when I read the book. I though he was a bad arse with a little Dr. Frankenstein and Dr. Jekyll / Mr. Hyde but the lion share of his being more egomaniac with a highly secretive side. He is selfish and self-centered with most of his affection going to father only; very aristocratic with a chip on his shoulder. He would be emotionally quiet on the surface but steady simmering and the steam coming forth from his glare. Only way I can explain it would be "Romanesque". Self-interest, duty, and casual affection if required would be his ordered priorities.
ANYWAY. I know I'm a "Johnny come lately" so I don't me to hinder the progress being made. I just that I would offer my opinion.
Last Edit: Dec 21, 2007 0:04:49 GMT -5 by Glorfindel
Thank you for your input. I actually agree to a point. When I took over the editing of the script I too thought that the characters were childish and immature and as you probably have not read the scenes as they were written prior to my edits, trust me I have grown them up and gone deeper emotionally with them than they were originally written. However, hS had written the complete script two years prior to my coming along, so I too am a "johnny-come-lately". hS has a plethora of material that details characterization, and he knows all the rules inside and out. I do not have anything to rely upon other than the Silm itself. That said I have gone to great pains to try to keep as much of his original scripting, characterization and ideas as possible and just try to build upon what he already has rather than just do a complete re-write simply out of respect. I am a writer my-self and I have written a fiction/fantasy novel that is currently in the possession of a literary agent and he wants to publish it, but I am not in a position to devote my-self to the editing process as I am deep in the throes of acquiring my law degree. (Painful educational process, I might add) In any case I said all of that to make the point that I deeply understand how precious a writers work is to him/her and I just really didn't want to totally destroy what hS had created.
You mentioned that you write a little, so if you can go back and edit the scenes that I have already edited and build upon them and make them deeper and richer please feel free. All we can do is present it to hS and he will either say Yea or Nay. He has nay said a few things I've come up with as you will see as you continue to read the work we've done here on this thread. I don't know if you are reading Gdocs or this thread, but I recommend you read this thread, because you will see the discussions that hS and I have had and how we came to the conclusions we did about the things we've written so far. If hS doesn't like what we come up with he will say so, but on the other hand he is quick to praise the things he likes.
Personally I love the Prologue. I think it is perfect and yes with the right imagery and pacing it will be lovely. As far as the rest of the script goes it is a bit shallow, I know, but I've tried to make Feanor as egotistical and just downright nasty as I dared. The issue is we've got so much information to try to cram in and we just can't get every little detail. As I've said to hS, the Silm is mostly description and little dialog, therefore I'm having to invent dialog that will convey the message, so that the viewer knows what is going on. On that note, yes some things are being glossed over, mentioned but not a lot of detail and I am seriously trying to figure out how we can just, like, show some things happening w/o necessarily getting into dialog. hS doesn't want to use V/O, so I'm looking now at speeding things up and then falling back on flashbacks. We can have a character remembering an event and not have any dialog, or just key dialog and yet allow the viewer to see what is happening so no one gets lost.
We are not opposed to help and if you can dress up the characters and still meet with the approval of hS then go for it. For the record I'm open to any and all ideas and/or suggestions, but in the end I will always defer to hS and comply with his final decision.
Last Edit: Dec 20, 2007 23:19:38 GMT -5 by tamitha
Whew! Thanks for the reassurance on my input. Again, I don't what to step on anyones toes or come trolling with critical comments out of the blue. I have not read all of the back and forth that you and hS have had (made it to about page three). The script that I was reading was on G-docs. Is that no good (not updated)? I did not know what the consensus was on doing rewrites; whether to do it on the fly or to complete the script and then give it the once over.
I guess the only straight forward suggestion/change that I would give now, would be a quick shot of Feanor at the two trees...studing them...getting enthralled with their light and beauty. This could be the beginning of the "obsession", his pride intertwine with a type of subtle lust. He may get frustrated in the making of the jewels and lash out but he would keep the project concealed like a Jack Bauer on "24". This is his life's work. He will be known and celebrated because of the Silmarils. When he completes the construction of the jewels, they become kind of "Ring-esque" to him; they are his secret lovers (in thought and pride) . Maybe I've gone to far with his emotion and motives but you get the idea. It really must come across. Anyway thanks again for your comments and if I can interject something helpful here and there, I will.
Last Edit: Dec 21, 2007 0:06:01 GMT -5 by Glorfindel
There are 3 versions on Gdocs. Scene 1-9 are the updated. Scene 10 that I edited is resting here comfortably waiting for hS to finish his writing cycling? At some point he will read it and either approve it or severly reprimand me and I will have to give it another go. I have not edited scene 11 yet. So the unedited version on Gdocs starts I believe at Scene 10 and goes to Scene 41 which is broken arbitrarely and then another posting of the rest of Scene 41 through the rest of the script in unedited form exists.
The only reason I suggested that you read what is here is so that you would understand why what you see in Gdocs scene 1-9 is written the way it is. You get the reasoning behind the words and it will help you in your decision making process and input efforts because you will be able to get inside our heads and get on board with us, or may be lead us into a "brave new world"
p.s. the consensus on doing re-writes. I am taking it scene by scene, with the book lying open beside me and reading and re-reading the scene in the book trying my best to develop dialog that will reflect what I am reading. I usually get about three scenes out ahead of hS and then he fusses because he as too much to read and then I have to stop and wait for him to catch up because if he doesn't like something I've written I have to go back and fix it and then it gets all messy on the forum so that is why we have Gdocs for completed edited scenes. But yeah, just scene by scene and we can always go back and make changes and then move it over to Gdocs after we all agree on the changes.
Cool. I will go back and reread from the beginning and then look at the Gdocs. I feel very confortable now with the fact that you are continuously looking at the book as you go. I'll to use this weekend and the holiday to continue getting up to speed.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you as well. Take your time getting up to speed. hS hasn't touched scene 10 and it's been about 3 weeks and I haven't even started on Scene 11 and I'm not sure when I'm going to be able to set aside the time right at this moment. I just made a major cross-country move from Indiana to Virginia in order to start college here in Virginia. I am holed up with a roommate in a strange place and I've got a part time job at a fast food joint, but I have an Associates Degree as a paralegal so I'm looking for a real job so I can get a place of my own and go home and collect my belongings and the pets I left behind. So needless to say my life is real super crazy right now. I try to check in at least once a day and respond to new posts, but I don't have the time to focus right now on writing. So take all the time you need to read everything over and get acclimated. If it's cool with you I would like to continue the editing process as soon as I can get a little more settled and then both you and hS and comment on what I've written and we together can make the necessary changes. But if it will cause an offense then please give us your version of the scene and maybe we can reach some type of compromise or mesh the two versions. It's just that I worked so closely with hS for so long and I kind of got a feel for what he is looking for and I got a rhythm going. I'm starting to get into the characters, I'm beginning to think like they do which helps with dialog, but I don't want to exclude anyone or their thoughts and ideas. So let me know how you feel after you've had a chance to look everything over and we will work out what works for all three of us. hS doesn't like to edit his own work, as you will see when you read over the thread. He protests often that he isn't any good at editing, but in reality he is, just not his own work, because he has done a fantastic job of re-editing my edits. We worked well together and we were playing off of each other and he was keeping me true Tolkien's works, so I didn't stray too far off the beaten path. Anyway---Happy reading!
Last Edit: Dec 21, 2007 20:13:06 GMT -5 by tamitha
Today at 10:58am, Glorfindel wrote:I'm still reading and also listening to the audio book version of the book. I probably won't have anything until the first of the year with the Hoildays upon us. HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!! I will be back soon.
Well, it seems that we are all three at odds with ourselves currently. We will all be patient and kind with each other and give the script a rest while we collect ourselves. Maybe you can come back after the first of the year hS. It seems pretty obvious that it will be at least then before G. and I will be able to do anything productive.
@g. I do not have access, nor have I ever listened to the audio version of the book. Sounds interesting. That might be a good idea. It might help with gleaning out some dialog. It might help with setting the mood.
@hs when I can get in a position to be able to pick this up again, I will copy and paste Scene 10 first and then go forward with the other scenes, because Scene 10 is now a couple of pages back and I don't want it to get lost in the shuffle, so I will pull it forward, so we can stay in sequence.
Last Edit: Dec 24, 2007 15:48:12 GMT -5 by tamitha
I'm just pulling Scene 10 forward, so we can go forward from here....or not, depending on what "G" comes up with.
We have a bit of a problem here since in the previous scene I had it known to Fingolgin and Finarfin that there was to be a council implying that they were invited, but not Feanor-basing this on the more previous scene where Finarfin spoke to Finwe in regard to stopping Feanor before all hope for peace and unity were lost forever, but such as it is I do like the idea of Fingolfin and Finarfin bursting in- perhaps they were aware of the meeting and had plotted between the two of them to “crash” the party? Works for me.
“…with perhaps a slight bias towards the male.” Really? Hmm, are we sure about this?
“…who move aside quickly to let him through.” Aren’t they all sitting down in chairs? Wouldn’t they just stay seated as he walked through? Or would they get up and move their chairs out of his way too? Or are they all standing and we do away with the sitting in chairs? Your call, I’m okay with however you want to do it. I just think if they are sitting they will stay sitting and he will just like walk through, the same way Fingolgin ran through.
I tinkered with your fight scene just a bit. Not too much, just a little adjusting.
Scene 10A: Finwë's House in Tirion AKA: The plot starts to move on [Fingolfin arrives at the home of Finarfin, he is clad in armour, with a shield on his arm. He rears his horse outside of Finarfin’s door and calls out to him.] Fingolfin: Come my brother, it is time. The council has already begun. [Finarfin appears at the door, also clad in armor. Galadriel comes running from the stables leading her father’s steed and bringing him his shield. Finarfin reaches to take the reins from her. After he mounts she hands his shield up to him.] Finarfin: Thank you, Galadriel. I warn you again, you must stay here with your brothers. Do not attempt to follow in secret. I do not know what we will find at the home of your Grandfather. [Speaking to Fingolfin as they ride out towards Finwe’s house] Finarfin: I have grave concerns about going to this council meeting uninvited and unannounced, my brother. We know not whether Feanor is already there. Perhaps this is a conspiracy between Father and Feanor to decide our fate. Fingolfin: I do not know in truth whether Feanor has turned our Father’s heart away from us, but I, for one do not intend to be driven forth from Tuna without defense. We must go forth boldly and make every effort to persuade Father and the council members to restrain Feanor and to remain here in Valinor in peace. Finarfin: I am by your side as ever, Fingolfin. I just think we would have better chosen to speak to Father in private, before the council meeting. How can we expect anyone to hear our plea if we show ourselves as eager for mischief as Feanor? Fingolfin: Have you not already tried speaking to Father in private? Even I failed to see the wisdom of your foresight the day of the festival, but regardless of the outcome, we must remain faithful to the will of our Father and the council. [Fade to] [Open on a great hall, reminiscent of the one in Valmar. Finwë is seated on a dais, on a throne, slightly above the rest of the hall. The Council of Finwë, filled with notable older Noldor such as Noldo #1, Mahtan, and sundry others – NOT any of the House of Finwë, or any Vanyar, Ainur, Teleri etc – sit in a rough semi-circle on the main floor, on chairs. They are a roughly even mix of male and female, with perhaps a slight bias towards the male. Indis is nowhere in sight] Finwë: I wish to thank you all for coming to this council on such short notice, but my heart grows heavy and upon my mind there lies a great weight. The unrest of the city can no longer go unnoticed. The time has come for decisions to be made, decisions which should not be left to the young ones who speak of things they do not understand. Pityacano: It is the sons of Indis that are the cause of the unrest, my King, with their talk of overthrowing you and supplanting Feanor. It is time to leave Aman and return to the land of our inheritance. [Murmurings of agreement from the crowd.] Mahtan: Silence! You sit too long in the council of Melkor, my friend. The sons of Indis bear no fault. Never have I heard these words pass from their lips. It is only foul rumors to kindle the wrath of Feanor. Noldo #2: Feanor, indeed! He is the source of the unrest in the city, with his rebellious speeches, declaring that the Valar brought us here as thralls! Lord Finwe, I beseech thee, you must refrain the son of Miriel, before all the Noldor suffer grave consequences. Finwë: While it is indeed true that my son, Fëanor, is a little unsettled right now, there is no need to believe that he is anything other than a victim of these troubled times. Mahtan: Victim? He is no victim. It is those nearest to him who are made the victims, my dear Nerdanel being the first of many. Finwe: Mahtan, I think that will be quite enough! I have not called this council for us to quarrel about my sons. We must come together and decide rationally whether we will remain in Aman peacefully or whether we will yield to the growing number who wish to return the Outer Lands. [The doors at the back of the hall slam open. Everyone turns to look as Fingolfin and Finarfin enter side by side. Fingolfin runs up to the dais and bows before him, then stands boldly before him. Finarfin stands just inside a few paces, but remains near the door, observing the gathering, accessing the mood, and looking for signs of Feanor’s presence.] Fingolfin: King, and Father, will you not now restrain the pride of Fëanor? You are King of the Noldor, not he. You were the one who spoke to our people long ago, bidding them accept the summons of the Valar. You it was who led the Noldor along the long road through Middle-earth to the light of Valinor. Long have we enjoyed the peace of living in this safe haven. If you do not now regret the wisdom of coming across the great sea, then by your authority demand his silence, and you have two sons, at least, that will still honour your words. [The camera is currently positioned so as not to be able to see the door. The doors slam back once more, with far more force. From the door, off-screen. Angry, really living up to the name Spirit Of Fire] Feanor: So it is, even as I guessed. [Pan quickly around to show Fëanor standing in the doorway. Laurelin is currently in her zenith, making the sky gold, and Fëanor's armour reflects this. He is wearing a large, ornate helmet, his shield and armour, and has a sword at his side, sheathed. Really play up the visuals here – this is the Spirit of Fire in full flame. Hold for a few moments. Finarfin steps forward and extends a hand in an attempt to stay him, but he violently shoves him to the side, before he strides forward, through the middle of the council, who move aside quickly to let him through. Follow him with the camera] Fëanor: Am I to be betrayed by own father? I had thought, at least, that he would remain at my side. Though it comes as no surprise that the children of Indis would not respect my right to first place at my father's side. My half-brother would be before me, with my father, yet again, even in this decision, as in all other matters. [Fëanor draws his sword. Another dramatic moment here. Try to point it out with the music – what we are seeing is the first ever breaking of the Peace of Valinor] Fëanor: Get thee gone, and take thy due place! [Fingolfin bows to Finwë, and without a glance to Feanor, begins to exit at a walking pace. At the door, Fingolfin turns] Fingolfin: Farewell, father. Please consider what I said. [Fingolfin exits. As they are leaving Finarfin mumbles to Fingolfin] Finarfin: I told you this was a bad idea. Now look.... [Fëanor is furious, and stalks across the hall, pushing Council members out of the way as he goes, and out of the door]
Scene 10B: The Square Below The Mindon Eldaliéva [Start with a wide shot of the crowded square, the Tower of the King with its lamp, and Finwë's House. Spiral down into the crowd, to where Fëanor is pushing through towards Fingolfin and Finarfin. Follow Fëanor's progress until he steps out in front of Fingolfin and holds the point of his sword to Fingolfin's chest, forcing him to stop or impale himself] Fëanor: See, half-brother! This is sharper than thy tongue. Try but once more to usurp my place and the love of my father, and maybe it will rid the Noldor of one who seeks to be the master of thralls! [Fingolfin opens his mouth to speak, but shuts it defiantly. Stepping to the side, he tries to depart, but Fëanor swings the sword to point once again at his heart] Fëanor: I did not give you leave to depart. [Suddenly there is a great rushing wind, and the crowd falls back, away from where the two elves are standing. Even Finarfin moves away, but his worried face can be seen at the front of the crowd when appropriate. The dust in the square (which is diamond, remember) spirals up to man-high, and then falls away to reveal Námo Mandos. He points at Fëanor] Námo: Fëanor, son of Finwë, you have wilfully broken the peace of Valinor, and drawn sword upon your kinsman. You are summoned to appear before the Valar at the gates of Valmar in three days time to answer for all your words and deeds. [Námo turns and walks into the crowd, who part before him.]
Post by Glorfindel on Dec 30, 2007 22:41:13 GMT -5
Okay, Don't Shoot! I just want to post my two cents about scene 2 and live. I cut it off after they leave Aule's forge because the end of dialog and change of settings would constitute a different scene starting. It's longer, and just so you can get an idea of where I'm coming from. Enjoy.
Scene 2: Aule’s Forge
[Sitting out in front of Aule’s forge, Mahtan takes a break from his work. Finwe walks up the path leading to the forge. Mahtan stands to met him and slightly bows. They both sit.]
Aule: [Coming out of the forge and approaching from behind the two, Aule slaps Finwe on the back in an enthusiastic and friendly manner which startles Finwe slightly.] Ho! Glad I am to see thee again, O’King of the Noldor. How goes thy house Finwe?
Finwe: Well, well they are Lord Aule [Mahtan turns his head away from the conversation with a frown on his face] and I’m pleased to be back in your company.
Aule: What of your oldest, Feanor? Rarer is his presence at my forge then thy in resent years.
Finwe: Feanor’s presence has become some what of a rarity for me also. He is more incline to abide at his own forge it seems, working for many waxing and waning of light from the two trees.
Mahtan: [turning back to slightly face the two with a slight frown] Yes, indeed he is ever there; Tis a grief to my daughter and grandsons. [Sighs] Often I regret the days in which I taught him what skills of forging that I had knowledge of.
Aule: [In an upbeat tone] Take heart Mahtan. Feanor has learned much from us and has mastered it. Indeed he has become great in skill and craft. Ah, but in return he has blessed us with exquisite and wondrous creations. Don’t so quickly begrudge his labors. Who knows what he may yet achieve. Surly there can be found a way to reconcile all things.
Finwe: Mahtan my friend, please don’t fret so about Nerdanel and the children. Things are not quite the way they should be, but they are far from being grievous. True enough, Nerdanel’s presence at the forge is not what it once was, yet she still finds her way there often enough. Our grandsons are growing in strength and skill. Many spend their time hunting along side their cousins with Fingolfin and Finarfin ever available to them.
Aule: Alas, just how many grandchildren have Feanor and Nerdanel given the two of you?
Mahtan – Finwe: [at the same time] Seven. [crack small smiles]
Finwe: There is Maedhros the eldest, Maglor of fair singing, and you have seen Curufin here at the forge from time to time.
Mahtan: There is Caranthir and then Celegorn who hunts and is often near Lord Orome’s mansion. Lastly are the young twins Amrod and Amras who are a like in look and deed.
Finwe: I then have several grandchildren from my sons Fingolfin and Finarfin. There are two sons and one daughter named Aredhel that Fingolfin has sired. Aredhel has proved to be a greater hunter than even her brothers. Finarfin has four sons and a daughter named Galadriel who is one of the fairest of all the Noldor .
Aule: [Laughs a deep booming laugh] So blessed both of you are in the land of Aman. Much has changed since the coming of the Eldar to the Undying Lands; Has it not?
Finwe: [His countenance grows dark] Yes, there has been change. I am blessed and enriched by so many things…but my heart, is yet, heavy. Will I always feel the longing for…Miriel? [bows his head slightly looking at the ground] She has been in the Halls of Mandos for many years but part of my heart is still with her making what joy I do have, bitter sweet. [Sighs] Mahtan, I do not mean to cast out all you concerns about the house of Feanor. There are times that I do do fear that my troubled heart has lead me away from dealing rightly with my fiery son. [He stands and looks into the distance] I sense his struggle…his need to fit properly into a family with brothers; not from his mother.
Mahtan: So, you do admit that he neglects his duty of ordering his own house properly?
Okay, there will be no Kin-slaying, not on my watch. I've skimmed this, and I do have some comments, but I will have to come back later, because I simply cannot forgoe the Colts/Titan game in 4th quarter and tied. I have a full day tomorrow, if I can I'll check in tomorrow, but it may be New Years Day. So just hang on for a minute, Frodo, Samwise is taking a detour, but is on the way.
Post by Glorfindel on Dec 30, 2007 23:11:16 GMT -5
Cool, that will give me time to post the "G" version. It was hard to morph this scene to what I wanted because I really wouldn't have done it at all. I understand the need for a scene like this, to get the info out. I would have done, and have done it, in a different way. See yah soon.