|
Post by tamitha on Jan 1, 2008 22:46:07 GMT -5
Okay, keeping in mind that I really have no say, it's up to hS, I'm going to offer up my opinion.
I think it's a little over the top. In LotR I don't recall the use of thy and thee. I've watched a lot of these types of movies, um different versions of King Arthur and Sir Lancelot, the more recent Eragorn, Troy, Kingdom of Heaven, and Mel Gibson's movie about the Scots, I can't recall the title, but they did not use archaic English.
I have to admit that I am beginning to see Chris's reluctance to bring this to screen. I know in the book that is the intent, but people just won't be able to relate. The language is too far removed. We will lose their interest. Even the Bible has been translated to the New King James version, which is almost word for word the Old KJV, but with all of the thees and thous changed.
Did they say "Ho!" as a greeting in LotR? Maybe "Hail" would work better. I think they used that in LotR.
Also I think we lost some things in your version:
This is an excerpt of a previous post.
These are some notes I made straight out of the book (the version Christopher had published that is) Notes: While still in his early youth he wedded Nerdanel, the daughter of a great smith, Mahtan, most dear of the Noldor to Aule. Feanor learned much in the making of metal and stone from Mahtan. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned from Aule. Nerdanel, firm of will, but patient w/Feanor, desiring to understand minds rather than master them, at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot, but later his deeds grieved her and they became estranged. Feanor driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small save only for a little while of Nerdanel the wise But not until the End when Feanor returns from the Halls of Mandos shall it be known of what substance the Silmarils were made. Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers, his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant.
In LotR Elrond, Galadriel, Arwen, Legolas and even Gandalf were always saying things like, "In my heart I fear...." or "My heart tells me...." or "What does your heart tell you?" or "A shadow grows upon my heart...." so I think that for Mahtan to say "I regret the day..." is to regress. As I stated to hS the book says " Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned from Aule." I think that particular line was perfect the way it was, "In my heart I fear that I shall soon bitterly rue the day that my Lord Aule and I taught him the lore of metalwork." It is a direct quote, just put into Mahtan's own voice instead of being a description of how he felt.
Also you edited out Finwe describing what was going with Feanor and his driven behavior, which hS wasn't sure about either, because he commented: "I'm particularly intrigued by Finwe's psychoanalysis of his son -- completely unsupported in the text, but very Finwe."
However I responded to him that it was in fact supported by the text because the book says, "Finwe loved her greatly (Indis that is) and was glad again. But the shadow of Miriel did not depart from the house of Finwe, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought." If Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought, then it stands to reason that Finwe was ever thinking of Feanor and considering how all things were effecting him, the death of his mother, his re-marriage to Indis, his half-brothers, plus I had in there the foreshadowing of the Silmarils. Unless I am just totally and completely misreading the book all together, despite the fact that Feanor became obsessed with the Silmarils, his original intent was to try to create something that would impress not only the Ainur, but most of all his father. Feanor, always saw Indis and his half-brothers as competition for his father's love. After Miriel died for a long time Finwe doted on Feanor, and then he re-married and had Fingolfin and Finarfin. Feanor always believed that he wasn't enough or good enough for his father, otherwise he wouldn't have needed to re-marry and have other children. So he spent a huge amount of time and effort trying to win his father back if you will and for awhile in Formenos he had what he wanted. His father turned his back on everyone and went into banishment with him, so it was just him and his dad and his sons, just like before. But by then the obsession had already begun and once Melkor killed his father, then Feanor became a lost cause. He claimed to be going after Melkor to avenge his father, but the oath about the Silmarils was the tell tale sign that this wasn't about the death of his father, as much as it was about the jewels.
I think having Finwe say what he did in my version covered that entire paragraph straight out the book, it showed that Finwe loved Indis greatly and was glad again, it showed that the shadow of Miriel had never left the house of Finwe, it showed that Feanor was chief among his thoughts, it showed that Feanor hated Indis and his half-brothers and why, it showed that Feanor was constantly vying for his father's attention and it foreshadowed the Silmarils creation.
All of that has been lost in your version.
Now, on a more positive note! I like the part where you have Mahtan rise and slightly bow to Finwe when he approaches. Aragorn was forever slightly bowing to some elf or another, who always blew off his bow in exchange for a hug. So this was a good change considering Finwe is the king and Mahtan is just an elf, even though he is the father-in-law to Feanor. Being the father-in-law to a prince does not a king make you and I had made the mistake of treating them as equals in my version.
I like having Mahtan turn his head away from the conversation with a frown. Good foreshadowing.
Feanor’s presence has become some what of a rarity for me also. He is more incline to abide at his own forge it seems, working for many waxing and waning of light from the two trees. I especially like this. Perfect. I had been considering this my-self. I knew I messed up saying night and day, but then hS, Derleu and I had this big discussion somewhere about the rising of golden Laurlin being similar to golden sunlight not some eerie freaky gold scifi looking light, and the light of Telperion on being the silvery light as in a silver moonlight, again not some offbeat weird looking scifi silver light, so I think that's why hS let it slide. But I often thought that perhaps that should be changed to the waxing and waning of the trees. Bravo!
You've done a much better job at introducing the house of Finwe. I like the way you introduce the sons of Feanor and then move into Fingolfin and Finarfin. Much smoother. hS called what I did "infodumping" which is what it was. Your version is much more conversational. Again, bravo!
Aule's last line: I think one "Give pause" is enough. It's too much having him repeat himself like that. You really improved on my version, I really like the idea of him suggesting to them to counsel with Feanor and the part about crafting peace. Very, very good. I like it. I'm cool with it, but I'm not sure what the reaction of hS will be.
hS said once upon a time: "I also need to track down my copy of Laws and Customs and post the text on this board, so's we can easily reference it -- it is most definitely the reference text for the character of the Eldalie. "
According to hS based on this bit of info that we are not privy to, that Tulkas is supposed to be not too bright ( quote from hS "and, oh, Tulkas -- so sarcastic! I didn't think he had the brains for it"), Yavanna is supposed to be impulsive and Aule is supposed to be absent-minded. Since I've never read this piece of work I cannot say how the characters are listed, but here in Rivendale, they have a much more extended library than back in Hobbiton. Here they have an entire section dedicated to the works of JRRT so I am going to make another trip up there as soon as I can get a chance and just see how many of these missing works I can get my grubby little paws on so we can get on the same page as our fearless leader, who like Aragorn has abandoned his men on the eve of battle. My only hope is that he returns safely from the way that is shut and the dead keep it.
Please do not fuss at me for TOO MANY READING! I apologize if I overwhelm you with too much info. But give me some credit that most of it was positive feedback, some was necessarily informative, and I kept my negative to a minimum and explained why I felt the way I do. hS gives me enough grief for both of you for writing too many words. I'm analytical, I can't help it, take it up with Iluvatar who made me this way. (ha, ha)
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Jan 2, 2008 10:49:59 GMT -5
I thank you for your in-dept look into my edited version, of your edited version, and there is no need to apologize to me. I too can be very, very, long when it comes to expressing what I want to convey about an issue.
Indeed I went overboard with the "Thees and Thous" so let me explain myself. Now language was the focal point for Tolkien in much, if not all, of his writings. I wanted to get that idea more infused into the dialog. I did get the info-dump feel on some of the conversation and tried to make it more of a give and take. The thing for me is that the elves in Aman speak differently than the ones back in Middle Earth and wouldn't the Valar speak slightly different from all of them? The Nolder language ends up getting banned by Thingol later on so how, or should I say, "is" that going to be conveyed in the script? I was thinking that since the majority of the story will continue in Middle Earth, you could have the Valar as the most formal and with the most archaic English (this would help blend what direct quotes you have from the book into the script) then, you could step down (take out all the KJV) and go less formal but still with a slightly "King Aurthur" fantasy lingo for the Eldar (Nolder) and then a pretty much modern English style for Thingol (Grey elves); This would apply for everyone else once the Noldor tongue gets ousted. Maybe this is too much to ask for but at least you know what angle I was coming from.
Since I have not read the Lost Road or the "Customs" books, I can only go on what is in The Silmarillion. It does not give much insight as to the personalities of the Valar or many of the other characters, so you end up forming your own version/vision of what they would sound like and the way they would act. I don't have the time to read through the other books thoroughly at this point. I have the Silmarillion book and audio-book and have been through both twice. I hope that hS would post an abridge version so we can be all on the same page.
I did remove some information from scene 2. If I had the time, I would have continued with edits to a few other scenes and shown how I would have placed the info there. I scrapped that idea since I was working on getting my "G" version done. I hope to have that up by this weekend. I have five scenes but I need to look them over and then peek at the prologue again. I promise to make it entertaining even if you don't like it and throw all of it out.
In conclusion (for now) feel free to use any or none of my changes to scene 2. It was more of a writing exercise for me and it also served to give you an idea on how I think.
Salut,
G.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Jan 2, 2008 11:32:48 GMT -5
The Nolder language ends up getting banned by Thingol later on so how, or should I say, "is" that going to be conveyed in the script? I was thinking that since the majority of the story will continue in Middle Earth, you could have the Valar as the most formal and with the most archaic English (this would help blend what direct quotes you have from the book into the script) then, you could step down (take out all the KJV) and go less formal but still with a slightly "King Aurthur" fantasy lingo for the Eldar (Nolder) and then a pretty much modern English style for Thingol (Grey elves); This would apply for everyone else once the Noldor tongue gets ousted. Maybe this is too much to ask for but at least you know what angle I was coming from.(I don't have that quote feature down pat yet, so bear with me, copy and paste always works. Okay, Huinesoren Glorifindel, we really cannot get into all these particulars. It is just way too much detail. People watching the movie, especially if they have never read the book are not going to care if a language was banned. They want to see Melkor killing Finwe, and Ungoliant eating the trees and the Kin-slaying and the ship burning and Maedhros hanging from the side of a cliff and Morgoth stomping Fingolfin into mush at the gates of his lair. And they want to understand the reason for all the mayhem, so they need enough back story and plot to tie the characters to one another and enough depth to be able to understand why the characters feel the way they feel and do the things they do, so they can either hate them or love them. They need someone who they love to hate (which in my opinion is Feanor), they need someone they hate to love (which in my opinion is Maedhros, he's one of the bad guys, he's Feanor's son for pity's sake, and yet that was just his bad fortune and he tries to do the right thing inspite of being bound to the oath, so you love him, but you hate to love him, because he's one of the bad guys by birth, dang it!), they need an evil beast, enter Morgoth and they need a hero, enter Fingolfin, passed down to Fingon, passed down to Turgon. Focus gentlemen, focus. I know, we need to stay true to the book as much as possible, but we also have to remember that this is a film. Somethings must just be shown in pictures, somethings must be simply eliminated and some things must be juggled around. Certain lines given to other characters or timelines not followed to the letter. I watched LotR prior to reading the books and that whole scene with Saruman, being thrown off of Orthanc and killed on the water wheel that took place in the movie in TTT, in the books Saruman did not bite the dust until at the end of RotK chapter the Scouring of the Shire- which itself did not actually happen in the movie, but was something shown in the mirror by Galadriel in FotR to Frodo as a possibility. You have to hand it to PJ, he got the important stuff in there, he didn't miss anything, but he had to fiddle and finagle. Since we cannot exactly use elven language which of course would be ideal, but then no one would understand the movie we have to fall back on English, (or if ever it were to be shown in another country whatever their native language might be). So since we are all speaking the same language, then we kind of can't banish a language, which has immense value in the book, but I think matters little to the film. It's just details that can't be depicted. Beyond that I get the very high speech, to step down a little, to step down to a more modern speech with the grey elves. That does make sense, except for the fact that Melian was a Maia, so even though they had never lived in Aman, wouldn't she have brought that high speech to the grey elves? Details! Details! Woe is me. I will not argue with you that Tolkien was all about languages and speech and he invented languages for the elves etc, etc. Again this is why Chris does not want to make this a movie. A movie will strip the book of its languages, its depth, its meaning, its romance. We can show the beauty, we can bring out the emotions, we can show the action, we may even be able to make people think about right and wrong and what to do, what to do when good people are put in bad situations and have to make choices when no choice is good or right, but the heart and soul of the book is in the reading and that can never be brought to screen.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Jan 2, 2008 15:39:47 GMT -5
Umm...That's why I said "so you know where I am coming from", not necessarily that we should approach it like we need to make it all "Languagie" and stuff. If I ruled the Tolkien estate. I would do a tv/cable series and have all the language in there plus english (they do it in Star Trek and the like all the time, ie - Klingon, Vulcan etc.). I would start with the greetings and some common expression in the elven tongue and then.... oh well, I digress.
If you really want to go hard core and get down in the dirt, I suggest cutting a lot of the prologue. I'll give you a sneak peak of the "G" version in that I cut most of the prologue but placed some of the info it covers back into scene 1 and 2.
Okay then; If we are trying to straddle the fence between loyal fans and casual movie fans, ya gotta cut to the quick. The movie is called THE SILMARILLION : FALL OF THE NOLDOR; that has to be conveyed rather quickly unless the title is just an abstract reference. You have to have The Silmarils, Feanor, The Two Trees, and Melkor up front and center quickly because there is so much ground to cover. I don't even think that you need all the Valar introduced up front; just the ones who are the most central or active. If Irmo does not get noticed...the story does not suffer. It does not suffer if you don't know that Finwe went to see his dead wife's body in Lorien, just get the point over that he was hurt by her death and still morns/cares for her.
I know I've read in a few places before now where you have posted about the need to move it and "git'er done", so I'm trying.
So I'm down for traveling light but tight (Glorfinel's Middle Earth youth hostel style).
But of course, we all have that little tibbit that we really want to include that maybe isn't central to the story but "cool" to us. That's where the "woe" lies.
;)I'm on scene six of the "G" version.
G.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Jan 2, 2008 21:17:16 GMT -5
Please accept my apologies if I came across too aggressive. I had to apologize to hS for being to pushy. I'm a little on the grumpy side, I have a severe head cold, all the aches, pains, headache, can't sleep, because I can't breathe, feverish and in general just yucky. They sent me home from work becase of how sick I am, so please forgive me. I know this first movie is going to drag a bit because all the necessary ground laying. The Ley of Luthien will be much smoother, the meat will be in the Tale of Turin, and the War of Wrath will be the crescendo. I can't comment on your version of course until I see it. I believe you are trying. We were trying too. Maybe we weren't going about it in the right way. But we thought that we did need to lay the ground work, we thought that we did need to introduce the Valar, and Iluvatar and show the creation so we packed the prologue. We thought we were brining Melkor front and center by having Scene 1 be about his release. We thought we were bringing Feanor to the front and center by making Scene 2 be about him in his forge making the Silmarils. The rest of the Scenes were building the family dysfunction and showing Melkor's rebel rousing, building up to Feanor's banishment which would set the scene for Melkor to kill Finwe, which would in turn lead to the Kin-slaying. I don't recall that we had anything in there about Finwe going to see his dead wife's body. Maybe I overlooked something. I remember we had in the V/O Galadriel mentioning Feanor's marriage and a quick shot of them at the wedding and then mentioning Finwe's second marriage and a quick shot of Feanor looking on at his father with his new pregnant wife and little Fingolfin with disgust. If you are in a position to do so, can you go ahead and post the first six scenes, so I can see what you have? I wasn't trying to be hardcore or get down in the dirt. But we are going to have to pick and choose what to keep and what to throw out or just hint at or the FotN itself will take 4 movies itself. (ha, ha) Just kidding! But we do have to keep in mind that besides this script, we do have the Ley which is written in full, but unedited and the Tale of Turin, and the War of Wrath have never even been written yet. I want us to have fun with this. I know we have to follow canon, but I don't want this to be yet another stress. I have a feeling that is why this board failed once before. If we can't agree, it will become a stalemate and the project will die again for another two years before hS tries to breath life into it again. I will sit down and shut up, before I see the ship go under. Friends again?
|
|
|
Post by Huinesoron on Jan 3, 2008 9:15:49 GMT -5
Seems like every time I look away, some new major issue comes up. Ah, well. First off, Glorfindel, two things: 1/ Can you please not use that orange (?) font? I don't know if it's just because I'm colour-blind, but it makes it really hard to read your posts. 2/ Spelling. Specifically of proper nouns. 'Middle Earth' for 'Middle-earth' I can handle (I do it all the time), but 'Nolder' for 'Noldor'? Please, check these things. As you say, Tolkien thought language very important, and we ought to do likewise. Now, on to the (yes, Tamitha, I know) Too Much Readings... I'm just reading the posts in the order they come up, I'll try to delete things which get resolved, but in case I don't, I'm sorry. - Feanor seems, to me, to be too weak and bumbling. [...] He is selfish and self-centered with most of his affection going to father only; very aristocratic with a chip on his shoulder. He would be emotionally quiet on the surface but steady simmering and the steam coming forth from his glare. ~Glorfindel Emotionally quiet on the surface? This is the elf who practically defines the word 'fey', which means emotional outbursts extraordinaire. He broke the Peace of Valinor, he kicked Melkor out of his house ('Get thee hence, thou jail-crow of Mandos!'), he tried to fight a balrog single-handed. Stable, calm and collected, this guy was not. He didn't have interests, he had obsessions -- his father, who he tried to kill his brothers over; the works of his hands, which he refused to surrender to the Valar in their time of most urgent need. I can agree with selfish and self-centred, but the rest? I disagree most strongly. I don't see the Feanor we've written as particularly bumbling, either; angry, overwrought, very dangerous, but not bumbling, indecisive, or weak. But that may just be me. -'G' Scene 2 --Characterisation of Aule: This was one area where I just had to make a decision. Most of the Valar are described purely in terms of their attributes and alignments (I think the exception is Tulkas); I simply chose, in my version of the script, to go with 'craftsman and inventor', which folded into 'absent-minded professor', rather than picking on 'yet another all-powerful deity'. I think, at the time, it was because otherwise he'd be too similar to Orome and Tulkas. I forget. --The language: You're taking that a bit far. Sample the first line. Ho! Glad I am to see thee again, O’King of the Noldor. How goes thy house Finwe? ~Glorfindel Since we're all intelligent people here, I won't bother with a word-by-word correction, just put my revised copy of it down: Hail, O King of the Noldor; it gladdens my heart to see thee again. How goes it with thy house, Finwe? ~hS One specific point is that 'speak like Yoda I do' is not a way to make lines more 'archaic'. Your line was somewhat confusing (not to mention apparently Irish, or is it just me that associates O' with Ireland? ); mine would work, and is probably better, due to your influence, than whatever was there before ('Yo, Finwe my man, how's ya been?'). In general, the language used in G-2 is quite a bit more 'dense' than would work on film. Actually it's a lot more 'dense' than what Tolkien wrote his dialogue in, although dialogue from the Aman era is very rare (and mostly poetry -- see the version of the Oath of Feanor later on in the script, which I took word-for-word from The Lays of Beleriand. Hey, I should probably have annotated the entire script as I went to show my sources...). Additionally, as I think you yourself say later, there's a fair bit of infodumping in the scene, which isn't really justified. I was never too happy with rattling off the list of the Sons of Feanor, but it has to be in there somewhere... - It was hard to morph this scene to what I wanted because I really wouldn't have done it at all. ~Glorfindel I have to point out, my script is hardly the be-all and end-all of the project. We had someone write an entirely new prologue once, which we then merged with the version I had. They covered the same ground, but in completely different ways. There's no reason you have to use the same scenes as me; we can chop and change scenes as we like. - In LotR I don't recall the use of thy and thee. I've watched a lot of these types of movies, um different versions of King Arthur and Sir Lancelot, the more recent Eragorn, Troy, Kingdom of Heaven, and Mel Gibson's movie about the Scots, I can't recall the title, but they did not use archaic English. ~Tamitha Correct on point one. Specifically, Tolkien only used thee/thou/thy in formal situations. Denethor uses them quite a bit, I think; Aragorn to a few people; perhaps Theoden. He actually has Pippin not use them to Denethor, which caused great amusement among the Gondorians, and also led to the idea that Pip was a Prince of the Halflings (because he was speaking to the Steward as an equal). Just to be difficult, this is a reversal of historical usage, in which thee and thou were the intimate pronouns, and 'you' was formal... but that's been altered by time, so we needn't worry (although, for those who know Shakespeare, 'How do I love thee? let me count the ways' is a prime example). Use of archaic language in movies about old times: remember, very few of those movies involved people who would speak any language we'd recognise. King Arthur was a Briton, and would have spoken a language less recognisable even than Old English (which sounds a lot more like German than English, and was the language of the invaders Arthur was fighting off). The characters in Troy would be speaking dialectic Greek (or Hellenic, I guess, but even that runs into trouble when you consider the name comes from the war they were still in... I'm not good with the Mediterranean countries). The general approach movies take -- and the one I tried to take -- is to translate the language of the age into Modern English. I've seen a scene which does this very badly, translating both Shakespearean English and Latin into exactly the same form of English (while leaving the Irish Gaelic as it is), with no transition. It'd be good to avoid that, at least. What I've tried to do with the FotN script is to translate every scene individually. The Valar among themselves sound, to one another, like the Noldor among themselves sound to one another. When a Vala or Maia talks to an elf, however, you get the Prophecy of the North -- the Doom of Mandos -- the banishing of Feanor -- all the various 'high style' speeches woven in. The problem is that everyone's speaking languages which aren't even related -- Quenya and Valarin, to start with, and the Black Speech or a related tongue at some points. Tolkien got around this by using English and an older form of English to translate Westron, and leaving the Quenya and Sindarin as they stood; we can't do that. We can't translate either of the Elven tongues into anything not understandable by everyone now. We're left with English to use for four different tongues (not to mention the Vanyarin and Telerin dialects of Quenya), and it simply doesn't have the scope. My recommendation, if we cannot cope with 'Yo dude what's up?' Valar (I exaggerate, of course -- only Tulkas would say 'yo'), is to render Valarin as Shakespearean English, and to leave the rest as a level playing field, modern English. Or, perhaps, to go the other way -- Valarin used to grate on the ears of the Eldar, so perhaps render it as the worst variety of dialectic slang? No, I jest -- but scenes with just the Valar would need to be cut or removed if they were to be rendered entirely in the high style. This is already TOO MUCH WORDS, isn't it? I'll cut to a second post now.
|
|
|
Post by Huinesoron on Jan 3, 2008 9:44:14 GMT -5
[Continuing from previous post]
-"I also need to track down my copy of Laws and Customs and post the text on this board, so's we can easily reference it -- it is most definitely the reference text for the character of the Eldalie." ~hS
And I still do. However, (sorry, Tamitha) it only provides for the general character of the Elves, with perhaps a few specifics for Finwe and Feanor. It says nothing for the Valar. Tulkas' lack of intellect is taken from the Valaquenta, which is in the Silmarillion -- it says to the effect that if you want advice, don't talk to Tulkas, he doesn't think of the future, only the present. Yavanna's impulsiveness and Aule's absent-mindedness... well, the latter is my own doing, pure and simple. The former I think is supported by her rant on how the trees need protectors (ie, the Ents), which I believe is probably from 'Of Aule and Yavanna', or whatever it's called -- it's the same chapter as features the Dwarves being created.
-[...]we can get on the same page as our fearless leader, who like Aragorn has abandoned his men on the eve of battle. My only hope is that he returns safely from the way that is shut and the dead keep it. ~Tamitha
My horse ran away. :(
-The thing for me is that the elves in Aman speak differently than the ones back in Middle Earth and wouldn't the Valar speak slightly different from all of them? The Nolder language ends up getting banned by Thingol later on so how, or should I say, "is" that going to be conveyed in the script? ~Glorfindel
At the moment, it isn't. This was a specific editorial decision, and went with the fact that we needed consistency in the names. If we included the shift, we'd have to use Quenya names through most of this film -- I think I did in the earliest scenes, before being persuaded out of it. To have Artanis suddenly become Galadriel would be too confusing, and, let's be fair, the language issue wasn't important in the scheme of things. What was important and plot-relevant is that Thingol banned the Noldor from his realm -- that's why they all lived up on the border with Melkor's lands (except Finrod). That is the ban we need to make reference to. Bringing the language issue up will simply complicate things unnecessarily, and would lead to truly dire scenes where two people were talking slightly different forms of English and pretending not to understand each other. ('Hi, I'm Beleg, what're you doing here?' "What sayest thou? I speak not your tongue, Grey-Elf!" 'Sorry, mate, I'm not sure what you're saying...' I think I'd get another 'No!' if I even suggested it)
-[The Silm] does not give much insight as to the personalities of the Valar or many of the other characters, so you end up forming your own version/vision of what they would sound like and the way they would act. ~Glorfindel
Correct. The problem comes when someone starts insisting that their interpretation is the only interpretation, which has happened here before.
-except for the fact that Melian was a Maia, so even though they had never lived in Aman, wouldn't she have brought that high speech to the grey elves? ~Tamitha
Actually (you're going to hate me...) Sindarin is quite a bit closer to the Primative Elven tongue than Quenya is. The actual closest tongue to the original is the Telerin Quenya, which has a lot of Sindarin structures (and in my opinion is a lot prettier than Noldorin Quenya). So if we were being accurate, the most 'archaic' speakers (other than the Valar) would be the House of Finarfin, and the Sindar in Middle-earth. How's that for a spanner in the works?
(I've actually written a short story about the Telerin/Noldorin Quenya barrier -- King Olwe makes loud protests about the Noldorin habit of using -r for plurals)
-I'll give you a sneak peak of the "G" version in that I cut most of the prologue but placed some of the info it covers back into scene 1 and 2. ~Glorfindel
Why just a sneak peek? When I originally wrote my script, I posted it scene by scene as I wrote them. Start your own thread, post your script, and we can split the debate over two threads and make things even more confusing! Yay!
Ahem. Sorry. Back on track.
-I don't even think that you need all the Valar introduced up front; just the ones who are the most central or active. ~Glorfindel
I think we... did this? I remember a conversation about it... all the Valar appear in their opening shot together, but only five or six were given brief profiles. I think we even went and cut Irmo's lines out of Scene 1 to simplify things.
-If we are trying to straddle the fence between loyal fans and casual movie fans, ya gotta cut to the quick. ~Glorfindel
I must admit, this confuses me. You start off by writing a scene with very heavy archaic English style... and then go on to say we need to make things simpler. Which you did just sort of do the opposite of. Maybe I've missed something (I'm certain I've missed something) by coming along later, but... what?
-I have a feeling that is why this board failed once before. ~Tamitha
Probably. And if it fails again, I don't think I'll bother resurrecting it -- the G version marks the fifth time the same few scenes have been gone over (my original, the in-progress editing, the first part of the 'Editing Process' thread with Maeglin, the editing with Tamitha, and then finally the G version), and unless we can reconcile the two current versions and move on to actually get further through the script, without falling away, I'm afraid it will be too confused to do anything with.
I think I had some sort of apology to make at the end here, but I can't remember what... uh, probably a reminder once again that my word is hardly law, and that the entire script can be scrapped if necessary, provided some sort of well-defined reason is given (as opposed to the accusation levelled at it before, by someone else, that 'everyone is out of character'. What, even Nerdanel who doesn't appear on-page ever?). And that I really would like to see a completed script.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Jan 3, 2008 10:12:23 GMT -5
@ hS, I took one quick look at your post and then scrolled to the bottom and agree with the question posed. Whew, a lot of words! I will have to look at that on my lunch hour and reply if needed. HAPPY NEW YEAR! Glad to see you back.
@ Tamitha, My lady, I was just tongue and cheeking all of that, Tulkas style. I have a decently tough skin from from sparing with my brother for many years. He is the greatest micro, trap you in a corner, analyzer that I know. You guys have done a pretty good job and don't think that I want everything totally changed.
This is so much fun for me. I posted, when my account was first approved, that I loved the bones of the Silmarillion so much that I was willing to do a "one man show" of it just so my family and friends could see the excellence of it and not think I was so crazy for loving it so much. Because of that, I have had a tentative outline of scenes and story points in my head for a while. I guess I just want to get them out and see what people familiar with the the stories would have to say about them. Again, I want the project to succeed, so if you say "ah, that's nice but no", or if you just use one line from it, that would be fine with me. You need not worry about hurting my feeling unless you go like "Glorfindel, you @!#@!# idiot! You don't know what the heck you're talking about!"
I will and shall ever be you guys Silmarillion Project friend and carry the best intentions to bring the project to fruition.
Salut,
G.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Jan 3, 2008 11:49:51 GMT -5
Firstly, I will start with the last; no apologies are needed, at least not for me.
Now, let's climb back up and start at the top; I’m sorry about the orange colored fonts. It was not done to blind the members of the board but just an expression of my person style and likes. The preference was available and I thought it no harm.
As to the spelling of proper nouns, Nolder indeed is a no, no, but I did not feel the harm of it at the time. It was an error of haste and focus lost to weariness as the hour was late in which it was written.
"This is the elf who practically defines the word 'fey', which means emotional outbursts extraordinaire." – hS
Yes, I agree that once he decided to speak, he went for the gold medal but that's “only” after he "decided" to do so. The book says that when he wanted to or decided to, he could speak powerfully. It gave me the impression that he was not always doing that, as if at specific times only. The under the surface bit that I posted was to convey a guy that would lose it from time to time in extraordinary ways but would go dormant like when he was asked by the Valar about the silmarils and he said nothing until...
Yes, the language, Ah, the words that echo forever more...I admit that they are imperfect and I believe that I kind of said so in my post to the degree that I was attempting to get across the idea of how it could be. I surly was not hoping to get what I wrote signed off on and approved as the official new scene 2.
On that note, most of the suggestions that I may post are maybe 75% to 80% solidified in my own mind. I'm not trying to put concrete things up here. I usually do three to four rewrites on my own stuff so most of my takes here are just to get my general notion out to you guys.
I can surly appreciate the difficulty present by trying to get the language issue resolved. It is far from cut and dry although there may be differences of opinions on a resolution. I again, wanted to add my take to the pile.
Oh, and I'm glad that you found your horse.
"Why just a sneak peek? When I originally wrote my script, I posted it scene by scene as I wrote them. Start your own thread, post your script, and we can split the debate over two threads and make things even more confusing! Yay!" - hS
I'm aware of the scene by scene posting and edits and have attempted to cover them all. As for a new thread, I ...don't know if that was to be a funny "do that" or a sarcastic "don't do that". I have not posted any of it because it's not ready. Again, I usually jot down ideas and notes, then organize them and write them in a coherent fashion. That is usually followed by two, three or more rewrites. I like to get a chuck done at a time if there are major points that continue through several scene, chapters, etc. If I am at work, then it will have a lot of errors because I'm trying to do my job at the same time.
I don't want to sow discord. I just wanted to express my ideas without having to augment a previously written scene. I will abandon that effort, if need be, to keep things on track and less confusioning.
My comment about simplification concerned character introductions and flow of the scenes, not necessarily the dialog.
"Alas, I think thou exalt thyself to thine own detriment" and "Dude, you're too smart for your own dang good", in my opinion, don’t slow down or complicate the plot (although those who commonly say "dude" may have a clueless moment).
The board fail? NOOOooooooo! There is no reason that the script cannot be done by the spring. This is not to be harsh, but I was surprised to see that it hadn't moved down the road more than it has. Of course, there are good reasons for that but there are also goodly reasons why we "can" do this!
Peace,
G.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Jan 3, 2008 13:30:11 GMT -5
@hs, My goodness, I didn't think you had it in you! You've out done me with the TOO MANY READING! I thought I held the record. Seriously, Ho! Glad I am to see thee again, O’King of the Noldor. How goes thy house Finwe? ~GlorfindelSo, King Finwë, how is that boy Fëanor of yours coming along? I never see him anymore, he is in his forge it seems night and day.- TamithaHail, O King of the Noldor; it gladdens my heart to see thee again. How goes it with thy house, Finwe? ~hSApplause from the cheer-leading section. My line was too familiar, and "G" made a valiant effort at correcting it, but once again you've shown your skill and perfected what "G" was trying to say. Much better than what I had written. Sorry if I was mistaken about the use of thee and thy in LotR, perhaps I need to sit down and watch them while I'm sick and in bed. I can live with it in the movie, so long as we don't over do it. As I said, the new line is perfect. Use of archaic language in movies about old times: remember, very few of those movies involved people who would speak any language we'd recognise.My point exactly. Most people won't recognize any of the elven languages. I've read the Silm, the Hobbit, FotR, TTT, and RotK, but I don't know the languages. I go to the index if I really need to figure something out. Now I know there are hardcore fans like yourself who have gotten obsessive and know all the ends and outs and there is nothing wrong with that, I applaud your dedication, but the average viewer, even if they have read the books won't know the languages. So anyway, enough said. I am just chiming in with you that we need to "keep a level playing field". Just to be difficult [ ] Oh, you are always being difficult, you can't help yourself, it's in your nature. (Just kidding!) [ ]but scenes with just the Valar would need to be cut or removed if they were to be rendered entirely in the high style.I don't think cutting them entirely is an option. I suppose we could cut Scene 1 and somehow or another "let it be known" that Melkor was unchained. Perhaps a discussion among Feanor and someone. But there are instances, the prophecy before crossing into Middle-earth and Ulmo appearing before Tuor that do require the appearance of the Valar speaking to the Noldor which, of course, I will surrender to use of Shakespearean English. My horse ran away. (Laughing out loud, oh goodness, my dear friend, how I have missed you wonderful sense of humor!) Why just a sneak peek? When I originally wrote my script, I posted it scene by scene as I wrote them. Start your own thread, post your script, and we can split the debate over two threads and make things even more confusing! Yay!More laughs, but yes, I am in complete agreement! I think we... did this? I remember a conversation about it... all the Valar appear in their opening shot together, but only five or six were given brief profiles. I think we even went and cut Irmo's lines out of Scene 1 to simplify things.Again yes, complete agreement! I must admit, this confuses me. You start off by writing a scene with very heavy archaic English style... and then go on to say we need to make things simpler. Which you did just sort of do the opposite of. Maybe I've missed something (I'm certain I've missed something) by coming along later, but... what?You haven't missed anything dear. This has been an on going debate since the board was started. Are we making a movie for die-hard, obsessive/compulsive fans, or are we making a movie for the general public? Since I fall somewhere in between the two, as a fan who has read the book, but not obsessive/compulsive and because I have friends who have never read the book and have no desire to, but would like to see a movie when I describe the book to them, I keep chiming in with the voice of reason. I'm thinking about the scenes I would like for friends and family to see knowing that they will never read the book and yet would enjoy the story. And I'm trying to keep in mind what they can swallow when it comes to language. Again, if you need for me to sit down and shut up, then I will. [ ]a reminder once again that my word is hardly law [ ]Of course your word is law, whatever are you talking about. No one from the PPC board is here anymore and you are the only staff member on board, although Chronicler did peek in a few weeks ago. And as I keep rehashing this is your project, King Ingwe. No, seriously we all have to be flexible and open, and I will be the first to surrender my ideas in the presence of such fine authors. I really believe that all three of us want to see a completed script and move on to the other scripts so we can at some point see this on film. So as long as we pull together we won't crash and burn. Yes, hS five overhauls on the same scenes is a lot, but if we can glean some healthy dialog from "G" that will improve on my everyday lingo then it may be worth the struggle. No thing worth while comes easily. @ G it was the that lead me to believe I had caused an offense. As previously stated I really want to see this succeed, so we all must be flexible. hS and I really do want to see your version. As he said, if it means scrapping what we have altogether then so be it. We are not opposed to complete re-writes. Trust me I've made major changes to what he originally had out there. I'm really impressed with how he took one of your lines and brought it to life and put my line to shame. We've both got good raw ideas, but hS has a magical ability to take those raw ideas and make them a into a thing of beauty. The sooner you post your version, the sooner we can take a consensus and decide to scrap ours, scrap yours, or mesh the two together. I happen to know hS is not in a position to re-commit to the project just yet, but if we can position ourselves to be ready for his homecoming then we can move forward when he gets here. Edit: Actually (you're going to hate me...) Sindarin is quite a bit closer to the Primative Elven tongue than Quenya is
I don't hate you, really, I was just thinking out loud. Thank you for clearing up my confusion.
|
|
|
Post by Glorfindel on Jan 3, 2008 14:55:00 GMT -5
Sounds good. I will be positive in all things (hopefully) and grow from this as a writer, which is the secondary goal of my involvement. I'll post the "G" version tomorrow, flaws and all, and have you guys beat me down...uh...I mean, "give my your critiques" of it.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Jan 3, 2008 15:01:02 GMT -5
@g: You got your post up before I got mine up, so now I'm coming back to respond to you. Firstly, I will start with the last; no apologies are needed, at least not for me.I agree. I'm not trying to put concrete things up here. The same goes for me. Especially now, with three of us. We will all have comments about each others writing and changes will surely be made before we all three agree on a final cut. Let me reiterate that flexibility is imperative for all three of us. As for a new thread, I ...don't know if that was to be a funny "do that" or a sarcastic "don't do that". I have not posted any of it because it's not ready.Let me rest you assured he was not being sarcastic. I know him well enough now to know that he seriously wants to see what you have, as do I. Just give us the six scenes you do have, we'll work through it together. But please wait until you are not at work, so you can double check for errors. Unless I'm in an extreme hurry I usually try to review my posts and modify them to correct errors before I leave it up for all to read. Not saying I don't miss things because I've found my own errors, but I at least try. hS and I both are big on spelling. I will abandon that effort, if need be, to keep things on track and less confusioning.Absolutely unneccessary. We just want you to start a new thread so we can keep the two scripts separate, so we can avoid confusion and see what we need to scrap, what we need to keep and what we need to weave together. hS, himself said that one particular line was better due your influence and I am in total, complete agreement. After seeing what he did with your first line in Scene 2 in comparison to what I had written, I believe your presence here is going to enrich the script a great deal. I'm impressed with both of you. No one is trying to or wants to squash you. We all have something to offer. You and hS, both, are far better at this than I am. I admitted that I'm not good with old English, I just write what I feel in my heart when I read it in the book and the language I use is Modern English. Between the two of you, it can be taken to that higher level you both desire. The board fail? NOOOooooooo! There is no reason that the script cannot be done by the spring. This is not to be harsh, but I was surprised to see that it hadn't moved down the road more than it has. Of course, there are good reasons for that but there are also goodly reasons why we "can" do this!Nothing would make me happier, although Spring maybe pushing it. You appear to have more time than hS and I put together. The only reason I've been on as much as I have the last couple of days is because I'm home sick (truthfully, I should be sleeping and not playing). Cooperation is key. In any case, I was quite glad to see that my friend stopped in to visit. He always makes me laugh. I love him, he's great. He does a great job at reducing tension with his fabulous sense of humor. We should appoint him to UN, perhaps he could prevent some of the unneccessary wars we find ourselves engaged in, in this ever changing world.
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Jan 3, 2008 15:19:04 GMT -5
[ ]and have you guys beat me down [ ] Never! I promised you, no Kin-slaying. Ah, writers/actors/singers/artists what a rash, defensive, hard-headed bunch we all are. Interpretion is everything and nothing! But how dull the world would be without us. Do we have a director in the house!
|
|
|
Post by Huinesoron on Jan 3, 2008 19:31:12 GMT -5
As for a new thread, I ...don't know if that was to be a funny "do that" or a sarcastic "don't do that".
It was the former. The sentence rather got away with me when I realised how much hassle I was letting myself in for by asking someone to make more threads.
Spring may be pushing it.
Ah, but Tamitha -- spring of which year?
|
|
|
Post by tamitha on Jan 4, 2008 11:50:04 GMT -5
Ah, Feanor......Feanor.....he was the bane of the Noldor, and he shall be the bane of us it seems.
-Feanor seems, to me, to be too weak and bumbling. [...] He is selfish and self-centered with most of his affection going to father only; very aristocratic with a chip on his shoulder. He would be emotionally quiet on the surface but steady simmering and the steam coming forth from his glare. ~Glorfindel
Emotionally quiet on the surface? This is the elf who practically defines the word 'fey', which means emotional outbursts extraordinaire. He broke the Peace of Valinor, he kicked Melkor out of his house ('Get thee hence, thou jail-crow of Mandos!'), he tried to fight a balrog single-handed. Stable, calm and collected, this guy was not. He didn't have interests, he had obsessions -- his father, who he tried to kill his brothers over; the works of his hands, which he refused to surrender to the Valar in their time of most urgent need. I can agree with selfish and self-centred, but the rest? I disagree most strongly.
I don't see the Feanor we've written as particularly bumbling, either; angry, overwrought, very dangerous, but not bumbling, indecisive, or weak. But that may just be me.~hS
Yes, I agree that once he decided to speak, he went for the gold medal but that's “only” after he "decided" to do so. The book says that when he wanted to or decided to, he could speak powerfully. It gave me the impression that he was not always doing that, as if at specific times only. The under the surface bit that I posted was to convey a guy that would lose it from time to time in extraordinary ways but would go dormant like when he was asked by the Valar about the silmarils and he said nothing until...~Glorfindel
"Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers; his spirit burned as a flame." ~Tolkien
"Feanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it; and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they ever remembered. Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride; hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness." ~Tolkien
The following is my essay, titled Feanor, the Bane of the Noldor. It has TOO MANY WORDS, and it is filled with my interpretation of the type of person Tolkien was describing when he created Feanor. You fine gentlemen, may accept or reject my interpretation as you see fit. I have tried to take into account both of your interpretations which seem to be at opposite ends of the spectrum and use Tolkien's descriptions as a balance. Some of what each of you say holds true. Hopefully, this will help and not drive the wedge deeper, but if I fail, well at least I tried. I hope that will count for something with each of you.
Now, I don't know about the two of you, but in my lifetime, I've known some characters and they were very intelligent and were gifted with the ability to make things or fix things already made, but they had a fiery spirit. They thought they knew everything. They had all the answers, no one could tell them anything, they thought they were better than everyone, very arrogant, and a temper out of this world. When it came to family, well let's just say that family could never measure up to them, but no one else had better say anything about the family (immediate family that is-spouse, children, mother/father, siblings-that excluded step or 1/2 siblings, aunts, uncles, cousins and/or in-laws). Now, because of their high intelligence, when they were so inclined they could speak powerfully and make good sense, even be persuasive, but because of their extreme lack of social skills, their inflated view of themselves and that ever present temper, if you dared to question or oppose them, then be prepared to suffer the dire consequences that were sure to follow. Do not be surprised if those consequences include up to physical violence, because this person is not a well-balanced individual and he/she is "NOT WRONG", can never be WRONG and who are you to question him/her, "you know nothing worm." You get the picture. I think this is the picture of Feanor. He was smart, he was sharp as a tack, and he could make things and fix things, he was very skilled, but his temper was, quite literally, the death of them all, but he couldn't see it, he would never be able to see it, he was blinded by himself. Think of a political leader, who has it all, then blows it because of some angry outburst, while his advisers are standing by helplessly saying, "Don't do it, please, don't do it." Alas, he cannot help himself, then later he justifies his actions because his pride won't allow him to admit he made a mistake. If only he could control himself he could be a great leader, but instead he becomes a tyrant and a dictator. Those who once held him in such high regard become disillusioned and disappointed in him. He fails everyone around him because of his inability to live up to his own high and lofty words, but he is a sociopath, so he can't see past manipulating, maneuvering and manhandling everything to his will. That is the evil that was born into the world. Melkor wanted it all, he wanted to be "God", the King of the World, he wanted to own Arda and bend it to his will. There was his will only and no other. Feanor was of the same mind and down through the ages of time, character after character, with this same mind set has wreaked havoc, not only in the world of Tolkien, but in novel after novel, both fact and fiction, and in the world we live in today. Power hungry, greedy, anti-social, temperamental, know-it-alls who will kill to prove that they are right and feel no remorse. So, I'm sorry "G", but I really must side with hS on this one, he is hot-headed. His spirit was so full of fire that it drained the life of his mother at his birth and she was immortal. However, to "G's" credit, we must make him smart, we can have him speak powerfully at times, but the key lies in "when he wanted to" he could speak powerfully. It wasn't so much that he never spoke, he was always spouting off, but oh, when he wanted to he could make those words count. Tolkien said, "Feanor was a master of words, and his tongue had great power over hearts when he would use it; and that night he made a speech before the Noldor which they ever remembered. Fierce and fell were his words, and filled with anger and pride; hearing them the Noldor were stirred to madness." I will use my-self as an example, I am an excellent cook when I want to, some special occasion when I get family and friends together, I most certainly can do it up right, but I'm single, so yeah, I throw this or that together for my-self, nothing to brag about, tuna fish and some mac and cheese right? I can cook when I want to, I just never want to. It doesn't mean I don't cook at all, but it leaves somewhat to be desired to say the least. Feanor could do it up right when he wanted to, he just, most of the time, didn't want to. Most of the time, he was dealing with Nerdanel, his seven sons and his father, who he expected to "just understand" him. They were just supposed to obey him, just because he was god Feanor in their universe and he didn't have to be all elaborate wordy with them. He could just tongue lash them in a fit of rage and all would bow to the great Feanor. As for Indis and his half-siblings they did not deserve his "want to" and they would have suffered the most dear under his outbursts. No, his "want to" would have been reserved for the Valar and for the elders of the Noldor when he wanted to persuade them to leave Aman. I think the only time that Feanor ever took a long time to respond was when he was asked to give over the Silmarils. That was one time that he was in shock, himself, and did not know what to do. It was the one time that he battled within himself over which way to turn, but because of the lies of Melkor, his greedy, obsessive self won the battle. Yavanna asked for only a little of the light and I dare to think that even if, Feanor had agreed to give over even one, of the Silmarils, when the news of Finwe's death reached his ears that offer would have been rescinded. Not that it would have mattered at that point since Melkor had made off with the jewels anyway. But whatever bit of Feanor that was good and right was conquered there in the Ring of Doom, when the decision was made to withhold the jewels. He was nothing more than a blood-thirsty, wrath-driven fiend from that point forward. Like any "good" serial killer, he had his wits. He could plot and plan, but he was cold-hearted ever after. There was no love left in him, he did not even love his sons anymore, if ever he had truly loved them at all. Nothing mattered, except wresting the jewels from the hand of Melkor/Morgoth. I know it's cliche, but "Crazy like a fox".
So there you have it, my little novelette about the "Great and Terrible Feanor". Do with it what you will.
|
|