The Quenya thread

[derleu]

New thread for this discussion might be helpful.

Original comments were these:

tamitha:
You know how in the LotR sometimes the Elves actually spoke,... well, their own language and then on the screen the words were translated. I think in some cases this would be a good thing for us to utilize as well. Having the Valar speak Quenya, like for the prayer to Iluvatar for instance and then translate it for the audience. I cannot do it, I am not well versed, but between you and Anneli, perhaps this is now a possibility.

Huinesoron:
Use of Quenya: Obviously, almost everything in the script should be in Quenya, realistically. But I've only put it in once, with the Song of Yavanna (later). Somewhat ironically, in that case, it's being used where Valarin would be a more obvious language. I would use Valarin, actually, except that there isn't enough of it -- I've only put one word of it into the Script, and that's given to Feanor (later, again).

Generally, I've been wanting to avoid subtitles; they break the immersion into the scene, I feel. The ones in FotR, especially, were very, very incongruous. So I've only used Quenya when understanding isn't necessary -- in songs, basically. I suppose I could put an untranslated line into Varda's prayer (I can actually do Quenya, if I have my notes handy)... I'unno.

derleu:
Use of Quenya:
On the one hand it would be nice to have some Quenya here and there, because it was Tolkien's biggest passion (he wrote stories for languages), maybe also showing some writings of Feanor who invented the Tengwar. But then it is also dangerous to make experiments with Quenya in a time when this language was still changing. So there should be different forms of the words in different parts of the story. It can only be wrong trying to reconstruct forms etc. Later on (second movie and later) it's probably easier, because then classical Quenya which is quite well-known through Tolkien's writings was more like a dead language like Latin or classical Greek and didn't change very much. But then the same goes for Sindarin which was divided in different dialects etc. (Thingol didn't speak classical Sindarin).
Very difficult, much more difficult than the use of Quenya/Sindarin in LotR.

tamitha:
Use of Quenya: Okay, whoa! Bad, Tamitha, bad! Forget it, sorry I suggested it, bad idea. Just scratch that. Let's pretend I never opened that can of worms shall we. Next subject please.

tamitha:
Too late, the can is open! ;-)

@all:
I still like the idea, but it's difficult if it is supposed to be as correct as possible (the PPC is watching us, hahaha). It would need some deeper research.

So what are all your Quenya books say about the history of Quenya or elvish languages in general? In my elvish handbook (by a German author) there is a little part about this subject. But I read reviews which criticized it for wrong forms and mistakes, so I have doubts about it.
Maybe we need also some help from outside. There are forums with people who are quite fit in these things. The specialists have material from scientific linguistic journals - that's the real stuff ;-)

Feel free to comment!

[tamitha]

Huinesoron doesn't want to do this and it is his script. We should respect his wishes. I think we should just put the baby to bed and forget it. I phrased my response the way I did intentionally. I was trying make a joke of it and avoid ruffling his feathers any more than I already had. It was just a thought. I would have never brought it up if I'd known it was going to cause such a stir. I just enjoyed hearing them speak the language on the movies. It is a beautiful language.

[Huinesoron]

Feathers = unruffled. I promise.

Derleu: accuracy would be delightful, it really would. I'd like to write the whole thing in Quenya, with variations between Vanyarin, Noldorin, Telerin and Exilic. We'd have Galadriel going by different names depending on who's talking, everyone bearing Quenya names (throughout FotN; there's not enough with Elwe at the end of the ban to take hold)... wonderful. But not feasible. We've already gone for simplicity over accuracy many, many times (names of characters is the big one, plus the timeframe for the exile, plus in some cases who does what). Doing all that and then arguing over whether to say Serinde or Therinde seems a little... wonky, with regards to priorities.

Plus, Quenya was the primary language of the time -- by Tolkienian standards, that means it gets replaced by English, and all dialects by dialects of English (I can just see that, actually... ). My justification for using Quenya to stand in for Valarin is that it's a Tolkien language which very few speakers of the common language (Quenya/English) can understand. Only then I haven't translated place-names. Ohhhh I'm so confused...

[derleu]

Nooo, not the whole movie. Just IF you drop a line in some scenes (like Varda's prayer), then I would think about making it right, at least try to do so. (Maybe Varda speaks also in a more archaic style when praying, because she's a bit of an old-fashioned lady ;-)) Anyway, you're right, it has no priority.

To place some Tengwar writings in Feanor's house/forge would be nice, too. That doesn't affect the script at all.

[Huinesoron]

I'm going to use this thread to reveal something either incredibly sad, or incredibly awesome. Actually, three things.

1/ I have recently - finally! - learnt at least the basics of Sindarin. Consonant mutation is a pain, but far easier with a table at hand.

I have done this because:

2/ I have recently written a page-long summary of the story of Beren and Luthien... in Sindarin.

3/ I then transcribed that story into Sindarin-appropriate Tengwar (not Mode of Beleriand - I don't like it - but correct tehta positioning and letter values for Sindarin, not Quenya). I now intend to write it up again on parchment-style paper. If I only knew calligraphy...

-Thoron o Fuin

And the proof:



Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4