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Post by tamitha on Nov 13, 2007 12:21:35 GMT -5
I went ahead and put Scene III up also, just so you can see how it ties into to Scene II. I only changed the beginning of it really, I left the majority of it intact. I really liked the way it played out. The only other significant change I made was instead of having Feanor say he would treat his half-brother's with the respect of Noldor Princes, I had him say that as far as he was concerned they belonged to the Kindred of the Vanya and had no claim to being Noldor Princes. I don't know how that will set with you, but I'd like to drive home the fact that they aren't full blooded Noldor which will help add fuel to the fire.
Scene 3: Streets of Tirion [Fëanor stalks up a wide stair. His clothes are slightly singed. Nerdanel is running along behind him] Fëanor: And I was so close. I was sure I had it right this time, then the twins came busting into to forge ranting about hunting parties, and birthday celebrations! They broke everything when they came crashing through that door! It’s all that running about with Fingolfin’s clan that is the cause of their ill manners and I intend to put a stop to it! And by the way, it’s the fault of Fingolfin’s disrespectful brood that we are late for this nonsense. So don’t you even think of blaming me or the boys. Nerdanel: Feanor, please, I blamed no one and the twins meant no harm. They really are not disrespectful, they were just excited and I do so wish that you would stop putting your work above the boys. Perhaps if you spent more time with them, they would not come charging into the forge the way they do, but as it is that’s the only place they can find you. In any case, for now, do you think you could calm down? Must you behave this way in front of your father… Fëanor: [He stops and waits for her to catch up, he takes her hand and looks deep into her eyes, he speaks softly and yet firmly, as if to a child who just doesn’t get it] You are very wise, Nerdanel, but you fail to see the negative impact Fingolfin’s children are having on our children. They are ruffians and just look at that girl of his, running around with the boys, not acting like a girl at all. It just isn’t right and Fingolfin lets her get by with it. Some father he is. But you are correct, I do need to spend more time with the boys and I will, I promise, just as soon as I finish this project. I am doing this for us, for our family and for my father. But for the time being I will hold my tongue, but know this that I am going to have a word with the boys and Fingolgin. I do not want our boys spending so much time with those three. Now, let’s just go inside and get this over with, it’s bad enough that Fingolfin and Finarfin are going to be there, what’s worse is I have to tolerate their mother. Nerdanel: Fëanor, you really should make an effort to be nice to Indis… Fëanor: Why? Because she married my father? Just because she somehow managed to get Manwë to break tradition and let Father remarry after Mother died, I don't have to treat her like she's related to me. Nerdanel: I'm not saying you should. I'm just saying you should at least be civil to her while you're in her house. [Fëanor sighs] Fëanor: All right. I'll try. Nerdanel: And her sons, too? They are your half-brothers… Fëanor: As far as I am concerned they belong to the Kindred of the Vanya, they have no real claim as Princes of the Noldor, but for your sake and my father’s I will treat them with respect, as long as they don't try to get between me and Father. [They reach the top of the stair, and Fëanor sees Finwë at the other end of a stone-paved walkway, standing alone in front of a door, obviously waiting] Fëanor: Father! [Fëanor runs off down the walkway and gives his father an energetic hug. Nerdanel watches this from the top of the stair] Nerdanel: [To herself] Somehow, I don't find that very encouraging. [Snap to…]
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Post by tamitha on Nov 13, 2007 14:32:54 GMT -5
I have Scene IV ready for your review, but I'm not going to post it right now. I've given you more than enough to chew on for right now. The changes are minor, just some adjustments so it fits in with Scene II and III. I did not do anything at all with Scene V. It's fine the way it is, except for the part about the laser beam. Would they have had laser beams back then? They did not even have electricity or modern weapons, that piece kind of threw me just a bit.
Edit: Am I allowed to make jokes on this thread? I don't know, maybe this should go under the miscellanous instead of here, but I had this fabulous idea, if we have lasers then what the heck are we doing fighting hand to hand combat? Let's put some snipers up in mountains surrounding Gondolin with some AK47's with laser scopes. Our guys on the ground can handle the the orcs, but our snipers can pick off the Balrogs and Glaurung.
Oh, my I'm so sorry, what a terrible direction I've taken this in. What a way to destroy Tolkein's MasterPiece and Huinesoron's too.
hS please forgive me and anyone else who reads this too, but you have to admit it was kind of funny.
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Post by derleu on Nov 13, 2007 17:26:18 GMT -5
@ tamitha
Great idea for a new trailer :-D I just have to figure out how to make laser beams, hehe. (sorry for offtopic)
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Post by tamitha on Nov 14, 2007 0:16:50 GMT -5
@ Derleu *laughing and laughing to tears*
Oh my, hS is going to kill us both!
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 14, 2007 5:47:17 GMT -5
You don't like my laser? In all seriousness (I promise), the point of that little thing was that the Eldar were advanced -- just in different ways. Sure, they didn't have electricity, but they managed to turn a sailing boat into a spaceship! They had telepathy and at least a rudimentary form of prophetic vision. They had magic, but they also had craft -- the hallmark of the Noldor. What's the point of being the Deep Elves if everything you do can be matched and equaled by short-lived, unskilled Secondborn? So I gave Feanor a crystal-powered laser. The idea was that, as a genius, he was basically creating tools as he needed them. (And, actually, it's not technically a laser -- just a tool for focussing light. It doesn't have anything to do with Light Amplification through Stimulated Emission of Radiation. So it could be a reflector array instead? Or cut out, if you prefer)
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 14, 2007 8:58:01 GMT -5
I'm editing/adding your new sections to the Edited Version. My changes:
Mahtan's 'My heart tells me' is now 'In my heart I fear that I shall soon bitterly rue' etc.
The line about Fingon forgetting Artanis' birthday is now 'Can it be that you have forgotten the day of your cousin's birth?'
A couple of breaks in Feanor's 'It's all Obi-Wan's Fingolfin's fault!' rant (scowls and the like).
"just look at that girl of his, running around with the boys, not acting like a girl at all. It just isn’t right and Fingolfin lets her get by with it." -- sweet mercy of Este, don't don't don't! I appreciate that you don't have access to Laws and Customs of the Eldar (it's an essay somewhere in the Histories), but really! [Deeeeeeep breaths] Okay. Thing is, there aren't any of these social distinctions between male and female among the Eldar, and most definitely not in Valinor. There's only one (non-biology-related) activity that's gender-limited, and that's baking Lembas, which is restricted to women. Other than that, nothing, nada, zip. Even Feanor at his most stupid wouldn't dream of saying this. So I've changed it:
'They are ruffians, unable to appreciate the truly worthwhile things Iluvatar has given us -- art, craft, workings and devices! -- and so they spend all their time hunting and camping. And Fingolfin allows it! Some father he is.'
A few more interjected movements in that paragraph.
'have a word with the boys and Fingolfin' is now 'But for the time being I will hold my tongue, though I assure you that I am going to have a word with those half-- [He sees Nerdanel's look and stops short] With Fingolfin and his children.'
The Kindred of the Vanyar line now goes 'they have no real claim to be my kinsfolk. [For a wonder, he catches her Look] ... but for your sake, my love, and my father’s I will treat them with the respect I would show to Princes of the Noldor... as long as they don't try to get between me and Father.'
I think that's everything... I've updated the Google Docs copy accordingly.
Edit: Oh, Valar, the next scene is the introduction of Little American Kid Finarfin... I really must do something about him. Like beating him over the head and throwing him into the harbour at Alqualonde.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 14, 2007 9:19:50 GMT -5
I think right now you are wanting to beat me over the head and throw me into the harbour.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 14, 2007 13:32:30 GMT -5
No, that would be counterproductive. Teenage!Finarfin is unsalvagable. For you, there is a glimmer of hope. :P
No, but seriously, I get very worked up about very small things. Try not to let it get to you, and I'll try not to throw anyone into the harbour, and then we'll all be happy. Agreed?
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Post by tamitha on Nov 14, 2007 22:31:01 GMT -5
I made a mistake, you fixed it. It's what we do. I edit and make suggestions, but you are the expert. I am learning from you. You have more knowledge and resources than I do.
Hey, at least you liked the returning hunting party bit that I created, I wasn't sure that was going to fly with you, so that's a plus.
Are you ready for the next scene to be posted or do you need me to back off? It's no big deal. I can work off-line and post the scenes gradually as you are ready to handle them.
I just get excited when I come up with something new and want to put it out there for you as soon as I can, but you've scolded me enough that I think it's time for me to take the hint and stop throwing so much at you all at once.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 15, 2007 5:57:08 GMT -5
No, no, by all means, more scenes. Moooooooooore. We must have mooooooooore. The Script needs feeeeeeeding.
I don't mean to scold. :( Despite my protests of TOO MANY READING I do read it all, and I'm very happy to see my somewhat scattered original idea being brought into a cohesive whole. So there's no need to back off, for you, at least. I, on the other hand, need to stop snapping quite so much.
I also need to track down my copy of Laws and Customs and post the text on this board, so's we can easily reference it -- it is most definitely the reference text for the character of the Eldalie.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 15, 2007 10:58:21 GMT -5
Okay, so here is Scene IV. As I said I really didn't make a whole lot of changes to the dialogue, just enough to reference Scene II and III. I do want to make a suggestion though. Somehow we need to show the house inside and out. I don't know how to fit it in as far as directions go, that's your forte, but while the focus should remain on the characters and the dialogue we need to draw in the viewer. Let them see the GRAND interior, how spectacular it all is, you know what I mean, for lack of a better term the "rich and famous", though I know that wealth and privilege was not necessarily a focal point for the elves, they were rich and just didn't know it. It's a party for Galadriel coming of age. We need to pan around and show that everyone is there, we need to show Galadriel all decked out in some kind of beautiful attire, you know to show groups of people standing around in conversation. Like Maedhros and Fingon and a couple of others in a group and then say the twins and Aredhros with Galadriel and a couple of her brothers and then the rest of Feanor's boys and the rest of Finarfin's boys in yet another group. Maybe we can show a banquet table. I don't think there would be any outsiders, this is a family gathering, but you might have some servants. I know the book doesn't really refer to servants per se, but if there weren't any servants, then the word thralls would have no meaning to begin with. How can you know what a slave is if you don't know what a slave is, if you catch my drift. So, anyway, let's keep the party personal, but based on Maedhros remark earlier that he only hoped his father was in a good mood, when the big blow up happens and Feanor storms out and Finwe calls out after him, you kind of want to just stop the action. You know how it is when someone makes a scene and everything just kind of stops around them and everyone turns to look. Most people are shocked at the outburst and then depending on their relationship to the person, some people are dismayed and embarrassed. You might have Maedhros drop his head in shame and embarrassment and mumble an apology to Fingon and then go to comfort his mother. Just a thought, fix it however you want. And then some of the boys, based on their temperment and loyalty to father may even smile or turn their head to snicker because they are really in agreement with their father and only came to please their mother and grandfather and because they don't really have anything against Artanis as you are so fond of calling her. I could see Caranthir and Curufin doing this.
Okay, enough rambling, here is your Scene:
Scene 4: Finwë's House in Tirion [Finwë and Fëanor enter side by side, Nerdanel a little behind them. Fëanor is talking animatedly] Fëanor: … so I tried adding emerald, and that just made it weaker, and when I added ruby it just split up into little granules that I couldn't persuade to come back together, but then I tried— [Fëanor sees Indis, Fingolfin and Finarfin on the other side of the room, talking to each other, and freezes. Finwë also stops and turns to look at him. Nerdanel comes up on Fëanor's other side and whispers in his ear] Nerdanel: [Whispering] Be nice, remember. [Fëanor gives a curt nod, and walks across the room to Indis and her sons] Fëanor: Hello Indis… Fingolfin… Finarfin. Finarfin: Oh, hello, Fëanor. How's the project coming? [Fëanor glares at Finarfin suspiciously, but it looks like the youngest son of Finwë is being perfectly serious] Fëanor: Fine. [Finarfin waits for him to continue, but he does not. Fingolfin breaks the silence] Fingolfin: So, Fëanor, we were talking about how well your Maedhros seems to get on with my own son, Fingon. [Fëanor glares at Fingolfin] Fëanor: [curtly] Does he? Fingolfin: Oh, yes. Fingon talks about him all the time. [Fëanor avoids Fingolfin's gaze] Fëanor: Yes, well, it appears that all of my sons have been spending a great deal of time with your children. That hunting party that your son, Fingon headed up this morning is the cause of my family’s late arrival to this…this…ridiculous affair. [There is a moment of uncomfortable silence. Finarfin looks shocked and hurt that Feanor would call Galaderiel’s celebration ridiculous, but before he has a chance to respond, Finwë comes over with Nerdanel] Finwë: Ah, boys. It's so nice to see you all getting on like this. Now, what are we talking about, hm? Fëanor: [Curtly] We aren't. [Finwë frowns slightly. From behind Finwë, Nerdanel gives Fëanor a Look. Fingolfin tries to defuse the situation] Fingolfin: What my brother means is that we had just finished talking, and that… that… er… [He trails off as the full force of Fëanor's glare is trained on him] Fëanor: [Strained voice] No one speaks for me. Fingolfin: I'm sorry, br— [Fëanor interrupts him] Fëanor: And you are not my brother. [Turning on his heel, Fëanor stalks towards the door. As he is about to leave, his father calls out] Finwë: Fëanor! [Fëanor stops in the doorway, but does not turn around] Fëanor: I will be in my forge. There is much for me to do. Goodbye, father. I hope to see you again… in better company. [Fëanor stalks out of the door, slamming it behind him. Slam cut to…]
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Post by tamitha on Nov 15, 2007 11:32:10 GMT -5
Some suggestions for the Edited Script on Google Docs. Very minor.
Eru: Behold Arda, the World That Is, the fruit of your song.
The way that reads, even with verbal pauses---the world that is the fruit of your song, which is not how you mean it. I suggest rearranging it to Behold Arda, the fruit of your song, the World That Is.
You are naïve and your brothers should take you in hand before you lead us all into disaster with your hopeful foolishness!
You wanted to get rid of the brothers and sisters references, I changed this line to "....Manwe should take you in hand....." It makes sense, he is the King of All and they are in his court room and he is the final judge. Also change disaster to ruin. My bad editing. I don't recall ever reading the word disaster in any of the books. It's too modern of a word. They were all about impending doom and ruin and other sorts of morbid phrases. Nothing was ever just bad, it was always end of the world bad, but yet there was always "a little hope" that everyone lived and breathed for.
Fëanor: Not a gem, my dear. Three gems, that is… [He sighs] if can create an unbreakable crystal to trap it in.
Mistake on my part in editing, left out the word "I" ".....[He sighs] if I can create an unbreakable..."
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 15, 2007 13:29:26 GMT -5
(I'll take the edits into account next time I update the G'docs version)
I'm... not sure about Scene IV. Not that this version isn't good, it is, but... we've spent the last two scenes building up to this, made it into a full-blown party... and then it's over in a minute or two. Obviously we can't add any more to the end after Feanor's exit, because as I recall Scene V cuts straight to the forge, so perhaps some more dialogue before Fingolfin shoves his foot into it? We could take Feanor past a few of his children, who he could greet, and perhaps past Galadriel and Finrod, who he could ignore. Then we could do a shifting-focus scene once he has met his not-brothers and go over to some chats between Turgon and Finrod, Galadriel and Aredhel (oh, I'd /love/ to see that meeting), etc etc. Gets a few more characters introduced so we don't have to pile them in later. Except that's starting to seem clumsy... still, we can most definitely introduce Galadriel, visually at least. And put Finrod and perhaps Orodreth at her side so they're recognisable later.
There, I've outlined the problem -- now you can deal with it. (No, I'll come back and work on it myself -- once I have time again. Promise)
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Post by tamitha on Nov 15, 2007 13:53:33 GMT -5
Yes, I agree, there needs to be a lot more done with this Scene IV, at the very least visually.
But for now, here is the chop job I did on Scene V.
Okay, so here is the thing with this. Part A is perfect as is, except for the part about the laser beam. I get what you are after, but I don’t think it is going to fit in with the film. It may not be a laser in the truest sense of the word, but that is how it will appear. The lenses and mirrors work, can we please work in some kind of magical crystal like the one on the top of Gandalf’s staff that can radiate light that can be narrowed down to a thin line and pinpoint which will give the same effect? Or somehow use a lantern or a candle and some kind of machinery to concentrate the light and heat? We seriously need imagination here. We need some real magic, like shape shifter type magic.
Now for the rest of it: Remember in The Two Towers, how in the movie there was this long sequence where there was no dialogue, but they just showed the orcs pulling down trees and the Uruk-hai being birthed from the trees and then you have this wide shot of Saruman’s furnace, factory whatever you want to call it and the camera just spirals down into it and you see all the chaos while Saruman looks on?
I think you need something similar here. You need to speed up the movie, you have to cover a lot of ground, in a short amount of time. If you can show the audience something, so that they know what is going on, without the use of a lot dialogue, then do so. The prologue is excellent the way it is, but it is long, by necessity, this first movie requires a lot of setting up the viewer so they don’t get lost later, at the same time, they will lose interest if you don’t get to some action quickly. Even the Hebrew God, Jehovah, had Cain kill able as early as the third chapter. People need a shock factor in a movie. The quicker you get to the Kinslaying the better. Which presents another problem. The last we knew of the Teleri they chose to stay on Middle-Earth with both Olwe and Elwe, so we have to depict the fact that under the leadership of Olwe half of them left behind Elwe and were pulled across the sea on an island that ended up not coming all the way to Aman, hence the Isle of Tol Eressa. That is something else that is going to have to be shown with mimimal dialogue, but that’s another bridge and we need to cross this one first. So, I’m going to go in here and do a lot of finagling, eliminate some if not all of your dialogue, add a lot of description and then leave it to you to reduce it to directors marks. If you don’t like what I do nothing is lost, we still have the original saved in Google Docs. The changes are going to be drastic so sit down and take a deep breath before you plunge in.
Scene 5A: Fëanor's Forge [The door slams back and Fëanor storms in] Fëanor: How dare he? How dare he presume to speak for me, that half-blood? How dare he think of himself as my brother? [Stalking over to the workbench, he holds a glowing gem in a cavity in a large device, which contains lenses and mirrors. A laser beam shines out of the other side of the device and into the fire beneath a crucible, igniting it. He put the gem down - the beam disappears – and moves over to a bench on which various gems are strewn] Fëanor: I'll show him… I'll show them all. I'm better than they will ever hope to be. I'm smarter than them, more skilled… [He picks up a large pearl from the bench, and walks back to put it in the furnace] Fëanor: And now… it begins. [Fade to black. Fade back to…]
Scene 5B: Outside Fëanor's Forge [Nerdanel is sitting on a bench beside the door, looking worried. Suddenly the door opens, and Fëanor walks out briskly, shutting it behind him. Nerdanel jumps up and reaches for him, but he pushes her away roughly. She stumbles and looks after him heading off in the direction of Valmar with fear and sorrow playing across her face. She sits back on the bench. She drops her head, obviously crying, though silently. Pull away and fade to black. Fade back to…]
[Show Feanor at the pools with his bowl actually dipping out the dew/light. Then show him returning to the the Forge with his covered bowl. Nerdanel is no longer sitting outside the Forge at this point, but he takes no notice. He places the bowl carefully on a table, he closes the door. From the workbench he takes a hollow glass sphere the size of a golfball and places it in the press-like device from scene 2. Then he cranks various handles, closing a variety of panels, spikes and the like on the sphere. Then he pulls a lever that releases everything. Taking the sphere out, he holds it up and studies it. Focus in on the gem and show the audience that it is flawless. He uses some kind of tool to slice the gem into two perfect haves and pours the liquid into one half, then puts the pieces back together, then using another tool seals the halves together. He heats it in the fire to smooth it out and make it seamless. It has to be flawless, there should be no evidence that it was ever less than one piece. This is part of the mystery to everyone except Feanor and the audience of how he got the light of the Two Trees inside the gems]
I think I should stop there, because I don’t think you wanted the audience to see the completed product until it is presented to the Valar. I also thought the gems should be a little bit bigger than marbles, but still small enough to be handheld. Just because later Morgoth is going to put them in his crown and if I'm not mistaken crown jewels were pretty nice size, while still being small enough to be handheld. Marble size will be too small and not show up in his crown from a distance when we get into the movie. Plus a marble is so small it's hard to hold onto and we still have the Beren/Luthien story ahead where he loses his hand to Carcharoth and somehow manages to hold onto the jewel. Even magic has to be believable to an extent.
Edit: I've had some time to sleep on this and now I'm thinking that you did not intend for the "light" to be held inside of the jewels, although that is how it is presented in the book, but for the "light" to be "mixed" with the materials used to create the jewels so that the "light" and the jewels were all one, which may be how it is described in "The Lost Tales" for all I know. So I think I messed things up a little bit here, but it's an easy fix. Just melt down the jewel, mix it with the liquid, pour it into a mold and let it reset, test it and then perfecto-all is well in Arda.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 15, 2007 14:58:47 GMT -5
Sorry I missed you---I got distracted---stupid phone--no, I shouldn't say that, everyone is wanting to know when I'm leaving and wanting to say good-bye.
Anyway, in response to:
Except that's starting to seem clumsy... still, we can most definitely introduce Galadriel, visually at least.
Actually, not so much. If it's handled properly, we need to get this family introduced quickly, so we can pick up the pace and run with the story without losing the viewer. Who's who is very important and the sooner we get it out there the better, so that you aren't introducing important characters later and the viewer is saying "Huh? Who's that and where did they come from?"
I'm going to take a break though seriously. I've been at this since 9:00 this morning and my eyes are getting tired and I think my brain too! Besides two scenes is enough to for us to work on at one time. I'll check in later and see what new ideas you have and see if I can come up with any. With the shortened Scene V, maybe we can afford to lengthen Scene IV.
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