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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 7, 2007 10:53:11 GMT -5
A newly revised prologue. It's a bit longer than Version 2, but that's because it's got a lot more info in it. ############# Prologue [Black] Eru: Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor. But I am Ilúvatar, the Father of All, and no idea may be brought forth that hath not its uttermost source in me. [Eru and the Ainur appear from the darkness as an array of bright lights, faintly tinted in many colours, although Ilúvatar, the largest, is white. They are singing the Ainulindalë (Silm. says 'like unto harps and lutes, and pipes and trumpets, and viols and organs, and like unto countless choirs singing with words')] Galadriel: [VO] The Ainur sang a great song before Ilúvatar; the greatest song of all. Melkor wove discord into the music... [Ainulindalë. The largest of the Ainur, which is red, suddenly pulses with energy, and a discord breaks the music. Around Melkor the Ainur grow less bright. As some attune to his music, it grows louder, and their colours take on a reddish tint] Galadriel: … but Ilúvatar's faithful strove against it. [Eru flares, and the Second Theme starts up] Galadriel: [VO] In the midst of the strife Ilúvatar arose, and in one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light in the eye of Ilúvatar, the Music ceased. [Eru pulses with a very bright light, almost washing out the Ainur. As he does, the two themes coincide on a final chord – the choral parts, if there are any, end on 'Eä' - and cease] Eru: Behold Arda, the World That Is, the fruit of your song. [The Ainur cluster around a sphere of clouds, at the heart of which lies a flat world of blue and green, which flickers with change as they watch it. Several of the largest Ainur break off from the cloud of light and fly down towards it. Cut to:] Galadriel: [VO] The Great among the Ainur the Elves name the Valar, the Powers of Arda, and men have often called them gods. From the beginning their King has been Manwë, the Lord of the Winds… [Manwë and Varda's faces appear on the screen] Galadriel: [VO] … and at his side rules Varda, the Starqueen, called Elbereth. The World of Arda over which they have sovereignty was shaped by the power of Aulë, the Master Smith, father of the Dwarves… [Aulë and Yavanna on screen] Galadriel: [VO] … and given life through his bride Yavanna, the Bountiful. But with life comes Death, and this is the realm of Nienna, the Weeper… [Nienna and Námo on screen] Galadriel: [VO] … and her brother, Námo Mandos, Lord of the Dead and Doomsman of the Valar. Last among the mighty are Ulmo, Lord of the Deeps… [Ulmo and Melkor on screen] Galadriel: [VO] … and Melkor, rebellious brother to Manwë, who brought conflict into the world. To strive against him rose Oromë, the Hunter… [Oromë and Tulkas on screen] Galadriel: [VO] and Tulkas the Strong, and in them is the tale of the Greatest of the Valar complete. [Beginning of flyover] Galadriel: [VO] The Valar undertook to shape Arda according to the designs of Ilúvatar… [Flyover shot. Sweep over the plains to the south, past the pillar of Ormal, and swiftly over the green lands of Arda, across the Great Lake, to Almaren, a green isle, where the Valar and Maiar walk. Cut to Melkor standing on the Iron Mountains] Galadriel: [VO] … but Melkor stood against them. Melkor: This is my kingdom, and I name it unto myself! [Cut to Illuin. See Melkor and his creatures around the base of the pillar, which falls southwards to where the Great Lake can distantly be seen] Galadriel: [VO] The Valar gave chase but could not overtake Melkor, and thus… [Melkor charges through the gates of Utumno and slams them in Tulkas' face. Perhaps this shot could be from inside Utumno, so we see Tulkas heading towards us, and behind him the ruin of Middle-earth] Galadriel: [VO] …the Spring of Arda was ended. The Valar removed over the Western Sea, to the land of Valinor... [Shot, similar to establishing shot of the Valar (but a lot shorter), of the Valar appearing on a dark beach and walking forwards. Pan around to show the Pelóri, and the Calacirya] Galadriel: [VO]...where they brought forth the Two Trees, Telperion… [Shot of Yavanna singing on the Corollairë while Nienna weeps beside her. Pan up and left to follow the growth of the Silver Tree, which reaches full height in less than a few seconds. He has dark green leaves with silver undersides, and silver flowers which glow. Pull back while panning up to show…] Galadriel: [VO] … and Laurelin. [The Two Trees, Silver and Gold. Laurelin has light green leaves with golden edges, and golden flowers which glow with golden light] Galadriel: [VO] Many ages passed, until Varda placed the stars in the heavens… [Varda stands atop Taniquetil and flings a bowl of glowing silver liquid out over the Sea. The dew separates into small sparks, and these fall into place as the familiar night sky] Galadriel: [VO] At that time, by the lake of Cuiviénen, the elves awoke. [Pan down from the sky to a lake side, trees in the background. Beneath the trees are gathered a small group of Eldar in simple white robes. They sit around a fire, singing. There may be a harp playing simple music, too] Galadriel: [VO] The Three Kindreds of the Elves, the holy Vanyar… [Shot of Ingwe and the Vanyar] Galadriel: [VO] … the wise Noldor… [Shot of Finwë and the Noldor] Galadriel: [VO] … and the gentle Teleri of the Shores… [Shot of Elwë, Olwë and the Teleri] Galadriel: [VO] … were discovered by Oromë… [Shot of the Hunter with the four Kings of the Elves, on the shore of Valinor] Galadriel: [VO] … who purposed to lead them to Valinor. Melkor stood against him… [Shot of Melkor and Sauron at the head of an army of Orcs] Galadriel: [VO] … and as the Elves marched west, the Valar went to war. [The elves have paused their march to gaze north at pyrotechnic displays] Galadriel: [VO] Tulkas cast down the Dark Lord, and bound him with a great chain. [Pull away from Melkor in chains, into shadow] Galadriel: [VO] The Elves arrived in Valinor… [The Vanyar and Noldor, led by Ingwë and Finwë, stand on the beach where the Valar arrived in Aman, golden light on their faces] Galadriel: [VO] … but there were some who lingered, unwilling to leave the lands of starlight. [Shot of elves moving into the trees under the stars – the Teleri from earlier, except Elwë and Olwë, are among them] Galadriel: [VO] For many long years the Elves lived at peace in Aman, and Míriel, wife of Finwë, King of the Noldor, bore a son, Fëanor. [Shot of a weak-looking Míriel holding baby Fëanor] Galadriel: [VO] Her energy spent in this act of creation, Míriel's spirit fled her body... [Shot of Míriel's body lying in the Gardens of Lórien, then crumbling.] Galadriel: [VO] … but Fëanor grew in knowledge and strength, becoming mighty among the Noldor. [Shot of Fëanor in his forge] Galadriel: [VO] Even as he was joined in marriage to the wise Nerdanel… [Fëanor and Nerdanel hand in hand] Galadriel: [VO] … his father, breaking with tradition, took a second wife, the Vanya maid Indis. [Finwë and Indis, as Fëanor looks on in disgust] Galadriel: [VO] Ages passed, and the time came for Melkor's case to be reopened. [Cut to the Ring of Doom, where the Valar are gathered in council. Melkor is knelt on the floor before them, still chained. MOVIE BEGINS]
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Post by tamitha on Nov 7, 2007 23:31:29 GMT -5
*clapping* Bravo! Yes! Sweet! Perfect, I love it! Yes, you are correct, I was looking at a very old version of the Prologue. I have looked at the more recent one now. I placed this one and that one side by side so I could do a line by line comparison. I like version 3 much better. The additions are perfect without losing the things in version 2 that are pertinent. Totally awesome. We will teach each other to be screenwriters yet. (ha, ha) I like the cloud sphere with the flat Arda in the center. In your screenshots, where you cut to Illuin and Melkor at the base of the tower, we need to include a wide shot, or an arial so we can depict I don't know an earthquake, or something to show Arda breaking apart so that the island is created to which the Ainur are going to depart to better known as Aman. You know you have this single piece of flat world within the sphere of clouds, but everytime Melkor and the Ainur engage in serious warfare the Silm claims that the world was "broken and changed". In the very beginning there was no Island Aman in the West. It was a piece of Arda that broke off and drifted west on the Sea. It won't lengthen your time. It's the dialogue and interaction that takes time. You can show a lot in screenshot in just a few seconds. (Thank God for pause and rewind Another option for your screenshots of Feanor and Nerdanel instead of just showing them hand in hand why not a wedding shot? You know show them standing in front of Irmo Lorien (since he was the dream master) facing each other holding hands and Nerdanel in an elaborate wedding gown. There's no dialogue, Galadriel is doing the V/O so it's just a picture we are showing. It won't lengthen anything, but it's more powerful than just showing them hand in hand. And then when you have your screenshot of Finwe and Indis you could show them hand in hand with little Fingolfin in tow walking on the beach or something and show Indis as really pregnant with Finarfin and have Feanor looking on from somewhere (I don't know on hill or something or other) with disgust. Once again it won't throw off your timing at all and it will show the viewer that Finwe and Indis had other children after their marriage without all the explanation. It is a quick easy way to introduce Feanor's step-brothers and speed up the movie. I don't think I like Nienna the Weeper though. Something about it just doesn't sound right, can't explain it. How about Nienna the Sorrowful or better yet Nienna the Healer of Hurts that's exactly how Tolkien described her or Nienna the Grief Striken. I know she cries at the drop of a hat because she feels the hurts of the world so deeply, but it is not for herself that she cries and Tolkien says that it was through her that others learned mercy and compassion for others and her tears were supposed to be healing. Okay, I'll stop for now so I don't overwhelm you again. I still want to talk some more about what you want to do with scene one, but I'll give you a chance to digest and respond to this before I move on to something else. I've got the day off tomorrow, so maybe with some luck I can catch up with you then.
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Post by starlight on Nov 8, 2007 2:35:00 GMT -5
Nice! Very Nice! Now we must compose Ainulindale, and Ainulindale should be the principal theme of the entire movie. But it is very hard to compose the perfect music....
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 8, 2007 9:04:26 GMT -5
I don't think I like Nienna the Weeper though. Something about it just doesn't sound right, can't explain it.
Now, the only reason I use that title is because I think it's actually what she's called in Silm (or probably Valaquenta). I know it's the translation of her name -- the Quenya for 'weeping' is 'nyenye' (yes, I had to look that up, I'm not that good). And, yes, it's 'related to 'nie', tear'. So she literally is The Weeper... but it's not very descriptive. I just like the term. Healer of Hurts is good, but it's also a part of Este's role -- even if she's not in there, having confusion between Valie is a bad idea. Adding an explanatory phrase might help -- 'Nienna the Weeper, who mourns for the Marring of Arda' -- but it seems a bit clumsy.
As to your altered images -- I agree to them all, and will put them into my Master Copy as soon as I get home, with one exception: Finwe and Indis on a beach. The shoreline is the territory of the Teleri, and while, yes, it's concievable that those two could've gone walking there, it's also confusing. Better to put them on a mountainside -- on the heights of Taniquetil, in fact, with a view over towards the Trees.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 8, 2007 12:15:04 GMT -5
@ Starlight: So, are you musically inclined? Do you have the means to compose something for us? Can you hook us up with a link so we hear what you have? Tis a good idea, why don't you talk to your friends and see what you can pull together for us. We need to start with something good or bad and then we can accept, decline or improve as necessary.
@hs: Okay, okay I surrender, Nienna the Weeper it is. If that is her name then that is her name, you can't change meanings. Like I said I can't explain why it didn't sound right, I don't know, maybe it just feels vague. Maybe I'm thinking when I read that that she just cries all the time for no reason, because she is a wimp, because she a big baby just having a perpetual pity party. What the heck is she weeping for? You mean she just cries all the time? Why? For what? What's her deal?
You know what I'm saying? It doesn't reveal the strength of her tears. But it is what is and we have to be succinct, short and to the point, so leave it as is.
About Finwe and Indis on the beach, I just tossed that out there, that's why I said on a beach or something. I like your idea just fine.
That is really something you and I will need help each other with in this process. Writers paint pictures with their words, we want people to see what we see in their minds eye and we want them to feel what the characters feel, we want to draw them in so that they become the character. But that is the whole point of the movie, less words, more pictures. We are going to actually show the viewer what we see and not tell them so much. We can rush them through a lot and yet hold onto to them emotionally with powerful dialogue and action scenes.
I'm going off to look at more of the script and will post more later. I don't think there is anything more to do with this unless another writer shows up with other ideas at some point.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 8, 2007 13:54:02 GMT -5
I'm also not too sure about the many 'brother' and 'sister's in there. Some of them come in without the adressee having been introduced, which could cause a great deal of confusion. It might even be better to reduce the number of Valar speaking at all -- Irmo and Nessa, I believe, don't say very much at any other point
Okay, so back to this. In light of the new prologue, shall we keep the brother/sister references or throw them out?
Also, so do we want to keep the exchange between Tulkas and Nienna, or do we want to change that to an exchange between Orme and Nienna, since Orme is the more aggressive of the two?
Furthermore do you want to toss the dialogue with Irmo and Nessa?
I'm going to drag you kicking and screaming all the way into this editing process because I won't go forward without your approval and input. I have too much respect for your work. And because currently we are the only two writers working on this, so buckle up, we are going on the ride of our lives. (ha, ha)
By the way I did away with the the V/O of Melkor's thoughts per request, but Derleu is absolutely correct, we have do a lot with that shot so we can show in his face and his eyes what he thinking.
I'm going to log off for now. I've copied and pasted scene II, but I need to take a break for now. I will see what I can do with it and post it later.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 8, 2007 18:21:32 GMT -5
Re: Lady Nia -- to be honest, the Valaquenta section is just there to get them associating the name with the face. I think her performance in the script proper shows her character. -- oh, and I've just read the Vq section on her, and ohhhh, how I love the description. Such a shame we can't get it all in...
Re: brothers and sisters. Now we've got the VQ setup, I think we can get away with a few of these. But there's still the problem of Irmo -- he's not in the VQ, so his suddenly claiming Nia as his sister is a bit out of the blue. If we gave him a line earlier, or referred to him, maybe...
As regards the Tulkas-Nia exchange: it has to be Tulkas. Whatever their characterisation, Tulkas and Ulmo were the ones who didn't trust Melkor (much as it pains me to admit to Tulkas being right about anything). And, as it says, 'He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor' (JRRT, Valaquenta). Definitely the impulsive type.
Irmo and Nessa... eh. We have a serious problem here, because it's very much against character for Namo to speak up as we have Irmo doing. Although... Yavanna might, she ought to say something. Obviously not saying 'sister', but she could get away with it. Thoughts?
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Post by tamitha on Nov 8, 2007 23:51:53 GMT -5
Um..... thoughts, yeah. Hold on a second. Hello my friend! I didn't know you were on-line. I was busy on Microsoft Works totally destroying your scene II Feanor's forge and right now I am so totally not on the same page. Let me get my ideas and reasons for the changes posted. And my new Scene II posted and then I will go back and review this and see what I can present for you.
Hey please don't kill me. I really did destroy your scene II Feanor's forge, but if you don't like it we can leave the way you have it, I won't get upset, but please before you make a final decision at least follow my reasons. In the end I did delete a few things, but that's because the changes I made caused it to be too long, so I was trying to shorten it and I suppose more of it could be deleted without hurting it.
So as follows are my reasons for the changes, the next post will be the scene:
These are some notes I made straight out of the book (the version Christopher had published that is) Notes: While still in his early youth he wedded Nerdanel, the daughter of a great smith, Mahtan, most dear of the Noldor to Aule. Feanor learned much in the making of metal and stone from Mahtan. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned from Aule. Nerdanel, firm of will, but patient w/Feanor, desiring to understand minds rather than master them, at first she restrained him when the fire of his heart grew too hot, but later his deeds grieved her and they became estranged. Feanor driven by the fire of his own heart only, working ever swiftly and alone and he asked the aid and sought the counsel of none that dwelt in Aman, great or small save only for a little while of Nerdanel the wise But not until the End when Feanor returns from the Halls of Mandos shall it be known of what substance the Silmarils were made. Feanor was the mightiest in skill of word and of hand, more learned than his brothers, his spirit burned as a flame. Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant. Finarfin was the fairest, and the most wise of heart. Melkor feigned love for the Noldor and sought their friendship and offered his lore and labour and the Noldor took delight in the hidden knowledge he could reveal to them and some hearkened to words that it would have been better for them never to have heard.
Based on the above notes I propose that we do not even hint at the materials that Feanor may or may not have used to create the Silmarils. There needs to be an air of mystery created here. I’m going to throw something out here and you may or may not like it, but we need to introduce the seven sons, and Fingolfin’s children and and Finarfin’s children. So I’m suggesting a major change to this scene. I realize that Mahtan does not play into the story ultimately, but how about we start this out with Finwe and Mahtan and Aule sitting around, just relaxing, maybe having a smoke ( I seemed to remember Gandalf was fond of the hobbits leaf), you could throw that part out though, it’s just a maybe, but anyway they are sitting around and talking about the three boys and the grandchildren. Mahtan as Nerdanel’s father and Finwe as Feanor’s father would have mutual interest in the seven boys and Aule and Mahtan, along with Finwe would have a mutual interest in Feanor and it would be natural for Finwe to include Fingolfin and Finarfin and the other grandchildren in the conversation. Then they could decide to go visit Feanor at his forge were he works in solitude, where they find Nerdanel also visiting her workaholic husband. He is what we refer to in these modern days as driven at the expense of his family.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 8, 2007 23:57:02 GMT -5
So here is the revised Scene II [Fade in from black]
Scene 2: Fëanor's Forge
[Sitting out in front of Aule’s forge, Aule, Mahtan and Finwe take a break from their labor and talk about the about Feanor, Nerdanel and the grandchildren] Aule: [slaps Finwe on the back in a masculine sort of way] So, Lord Finwe, how is that boy Feanor of yours coming along? I never see him anymore, he is in his forge it seems night and day. Mahtan: Yes, at the grief of my daughter and grandsons, I must say. My heart tells me that soon I shall bitterly rue the day that Aule and I taught him the lore of metalwork. Finwe: Ah, Mahtan do not fret about Nerdanel or the boys. She finds her way to Feanor’s forge often enough and the boys spend much of their time hunting in the forests with their cousins. It is not as if Fingolfin and Finafin do not spend time with them. Aule: How many grandchildren have Feanor and Nerdanel given the two of you? Mahtan and Finwe: [both beaming and smiling, in unison] Seven! Mahtan: Maedhros, Maglor, Celegorm and Caranthir….. Finwe: Curufin, and the twins Amrod and Amras. Fingolfin has three children, two sons and a daughter, Aredhel who is a better hunter than the boys and Finarfin has four sons and a most lovely daughter who is called Galadriel. Aule: [laughs a deep booming laugh] And so the house of Finwe grows. Much has changed since the days by lake Cuivienen has it not? Finwe: [his countenance grows dark, a shadow passes over it] Yes, much has changed and not all for the better I fear. Though I am bound in love and loyalty to Indis, my spirit still longs for Miriel. Feanor is so driven in his passion, his unfulfilled desire for his mother and a need for my approval. I think he feels that it is his responsibility to create something so incredible that it would bring me so much pride and joy as to make up for the loss of Miriel. Mahtan: So, at last you admit that he spends too much time in that forge striving for the impossible instead of being a husband to my daughter and a father to his sons. Finwe: [disgusted and just a bit angry] I said no such thing! He cannot be ignoring her too much, they have seven sons who are as skilled in word and hand as their father. He has taught them well. Aule: See here, let us go pay a visit to Feanor’s forge and the family and see for ourselves how they are fairing instead of speculating. You each will protect your own without knowing the facts. [They get up and start walking, but jump over to Feanor’s forge] [Interior of the forge. Fëanor is working over a furnace, pouring some type of molten liquid into a black oval shaped mold. Then he walks briskly over to another table, he pulls a sphere of faintly blue transparent crystal out of a wooden bucket of water and carries it carefully back over to the furnace. Nerdanel is sitting up on the table, watching her husband with admiration and curiosity] Fëanor: Now, if only this can with stand the pressure I will have found the answer. [To the left of the fire is a strange, press-like device. Fëanor moves to put the sphere into the centre of the device, but when he closes the press on it, it shatters.] Fëanor: [ Losing his temper in frustration] Nerdanel! Have you any advice? Don’t just sit there, do something! There's got to be something I can add… [ Nerdanel walks over to a cupboard near the door, gets out a broom and starts sweeping the shattered crystal into a corner, where we see there is already a large heap of fragments in all sizes and colours.] Nerdanel: Well…My love, if I had a better idea of what you are trying to accomplish, I could better advise you. Fëanor: Oh, why do I bother asking you anything. What do you know of working with gems? Your father taught you to work with metals. Crystals are more fragile, which is frustrating to say the least. Nerdanel: Feanor, dearest, if you would only share with me what it is you are trying to accomplish, perhaps I could help alleviate some of your frustration. Fëanor: [Shrugs] I am trying to make a substance harder than any known to elf or Valar. There must be a way to create a gem with the appearance of crystal, the light weight of mithril, and the strength of iron, I just have to figure it out. Nerdanel: [Intrigued] Why are you trying to do that? For what purpose would you want to create a gem like that? [Fëanor shakes his head, obviously irritated. He grabs her by the arm and drags her over to a workbench where sheets of parchment are laid out, with sketches all over them. Nerdanel peers down at one particular piece] Nerdanel: [she catches her breath as her eyes grow wide with understanding and shock] Feanor! This looks as though…. Oh my, you can’t be serious. Are you planning to trap the light of the Trees in a gem? Fëanor: Not a gem, my dear. Three gems to be precise, that is if can create an unbreakable crystal to trap it in. Nerdanel: But why, Fëanor? Why would you do that? And what will the Valar say? [Over the following speech, Fëanor grows steadily more enthusiastic, moving around the forge, with gestures] Fëanor: Nerdanel, just imagine it, the beauty of a jewel that glowed with the mingled light of Laurelin and Telperion! It would light a room with coruscating patterns like those on the seabed beyond the Pass of Light, ever changing and yet enduring forever! [He stops and lifts a hand as if reaching out to something unseen, and Nerdanel opens her mouth to speak, but he turns and looks at her, hand dropping again to his side] I saw them, you know, in a dream or a vision. Three gems, perfectly shaped, flooding my mind with a light of gold and silver. Atop three pillars they sat, of red, blue and clear glass. Even now, when I close my eyes, I see them still. I must capture that beauty, Nerdanel. I must. [Before Nerdanel has a chance to respond, there is a knock at the door] Fëanor: [Shouting] It's open! Come in! [The door opens and Aule, Finwe and Mahtan enter.] [Fade to black, snap to…]
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Post by tamitha on Nov 9, 2007 0:59:49 GMT -5
Re: brothers and sisters. Now we've got the VQ setup, I think we can get away with a few of these. But there's still the problem of Irmo -- he's not in the VQ, so his suddenly claiming Nia as his sister is a bit out of the blue. If we gave him a line earlier, or referred to him, maybe...
Irmo and Nessa... eh. We have a serious problem here, because it's very much against character for Namo to speak up as we have Irmo doing. Although... Yavanna might, she ought to say something. Obviously not saying 'sister', but she could get away with it. Thoughts?
See Page 2- my version of Scene 1
Changed Irmo to Yavanna, did a little re-wording. Left in Nessa because she is the spouse of Tulkas and it makes sense that she would reprimand her own husband. Threw in a line from Ulmo, just to show that he too mistrusted Melkor, but that line can easily be eliminated and we can change Yavanna's line back to the original and it won't change a thing. And you are correct, we absolutely cannot give Namo any lines. Checked the book, just to be sure, but it says Nienna aided Melkor's prayers, but Mandos was silent. See what you think.
I gotta go for now though, I've been working on this almost all day, it's 1:00 a.m. and I've got to get up and go to work tomorrow. I'll be pushing the snooze 15 times at this rate. Later.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 10, 2007 13:38:13 GMT -5
so... many... reading...
To take this in the order that you referred to it, we come first to Feanor and the forming of the Silmarilli. The reason I used the specific gems I did in these scenes is that I ripped them whole from the Book of Lost Tales, which contains an exhaustive list of the makeup of the Silmarils (this is also my source for things like the death of Amrod, and various other bits and bobs -- I branch out). However, I'll admit that it's a bit, mm, lacking in mystery. So they can go.
I do like the scenelet at Aule's forge -- although some of the dialogue is a bit stilted. I noted specifically 'I still remember when he was always about here at Aule’s forge.' Seeing as the last person to speak was Aule, this seems an odd way of putting it. I know why you wrote it in -- to set the location -- but there's no reason why Mahtan would say it.
There's also a couple of other edits I'd make ('How many grandchildren have Feanor and Nerdanel given the two of you, again?", for instance, which single word brings back the characterisation of Aule as slightly absent-minded, while taking away the hint of infodumping in the next few lines), but for the most part I like it. I'm particularly intrigued by Finwe's psychoanalysis of his son -- completely unsupported in the text, but very Finwe.
I have to wonder what you're planning next, though. By bringing Finwe to Feanor, we lose out on the initial introduction of the other Finwions to the screen (although to be honest we can do without seeing Indis -- she only appeared once in the original script!), as I think Feanor would take it very badly if they were to appear in his forge.
Okay, so I'll add this scene to my Master Copy, and then... well, I guess I'll throw it into the 'Edited Version' thread. I should start using that again anyway.
To the edited Scene 1 -- it works. We have another impulsive character now in our dear Earthqueen (as the Ents would say, she's positively hasty!), but she's motivated by her fierce protectiveness for Arda -- that 'lead us to ruin' line is particularly evocative of this motif, and I might even suggest altering it to 'lead us and our world to ruin', to bring out the point even more.
Like I say, then, there's a few minor edits I'll make to Scene 2, but they're mostly either minor stylistic ones, or standard spelling-punctuation-grammar checks. I'll throw it together and update the Edited Version thread accordingly.
Edit: One error I really do need to fix -- 'the days by Lake Cuivienen'. At that point in time, there were no days. So it's now 'your time by'.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 10, 2007 17:11:06 GMT -5
Before I apologize too much, please remember You are the one who was begging for editors and pleaded for someone to talk to you because you were lonely. Now you have an active member and it's too much for you to handle? No, no, I'm just joking.
Seriously, I did overdo it just a bit, but as I said I had the day off from work and I spent most of it fiddling around here. I'm trying to cover as much ground as I can before I have to go off-line in December.
Yes, and yes to everything you've said. This why I sorely need your input. I've read Christopher's version of the Silm twice and have a copy of it currently in my possesion so this what I refer back to when I am in the process of editing. I am aware of the Book of Lost Tales I and II and a myriad of other publications i.e. the History of Middle-Earth that I have not read. You are much more well-versed in JRRT's works than I am. Most of what I am doing is skelaton changes and I rely upon you spruce it up.
I am just grateful that you liked the changes and didn't get really upset with me, because it was a huge paradiem shift. But you went with it so that is a good sign.
"While still in his early youth he wedded Nerdanel, the daughter of a great smith, Mahtan, most dear of the Noldor to Aule. Feanor learned much in the making of metal and stone from Mahtan. Bitterly did Mahtan rue the day when he taught to the husband of Nerdanel all the lore of metalwork that he had learned from Aule."
This quote from the book is the reason I had Mahtan say what he did, but I agree the wording is way off. Granted I am assuming a lot not spelled out verbatum in the text, but the goal I was driving at was I wanted the audience to know that Feanor had spent time learning his trade from the both Aule and Mahtan at Aule's forge. You are the master at manipulating such things so if you can fix it by all means please do so.
Re: Finwe's psychoanalysis of Feanor The text claims, "Finwe loved her greatly (Indis that is) and was glad again. But the shadow of Miriel did not depart from the house of Finwe, nor from his heart; and of all whom he loved Feanor had ever the chief share of his thought." So that was the support from the text that I used for the psychoanalysis of Feanor by Finwe. Again, I apologize if the assumptions are over reaching. Maybe I'm trying to pull in too much. I'm trying to use the dialogue to tell things that are just known through description when you read the book. People, places and things we can show, thoughts and feelings we have to pull out through invented dialogue, since there isn't very much of that in the text. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
What am I planning next? Well, I don't know just yet. I ended the scene with Aule and Mahtan and Finwe showing up. Is it necessary to include dialogue at this point? I mean with the beginning of the scene the audience knows why they are there. They came to be nosy in-laws, to see what Feanor is up to and how Nerdanel and the kids are fairing.
I haven't really looked at scene III and IV yet. I've skimmed them, but not given them serious thought because I was waiting for you to catch up. I don't want to get too far out ahead of you. It was bad enough jumping ahead to scene II while we were still working on scene I.
I agree with you, Indis and Fingolfin and Finarfin must never appear at Feanor's forge. That is out of the question. Perhaps to set up scene III Finwe can extend an invitation oh let's say to Nerdanel (purposefully avoiding Feanor) to some kind of family get together. What one of the grandkids birthday, a feast to celebrate ? Galadriel's birthday?, just a thought since she seemed always to be so sweet and everyone seemed to love her so much. Or how about Feanor's birthday? That would be a big deal. I don't know, you tell me. Invent something. Some important family gathering which will require Feanor's presence and that will throw them all together in the same setting and allow your scene III to flow smoothly so you can keep it mostly as is and bring to the surface Feanor's disdain for Indis and his disgust, lack of trust and hatred in general for his 1/2 brothers and how Nerdanel and Finwe tried to mend the rift.
Yes, I like the idea of moving our completed scenes over to 'Edited Version Thread' that will help you and I keep it straight, give us a reference point for other scenes and be a big help for anyone else who shows up and wants to help out.
'the days by Lake Cuivienen' Just another example of why I need you to keep me on the straight and narrow. Pleeeeease, pleeease do fix my faux pas.
Edit: P. S. It took me longer to write it than it did for you to read it. ha, ha Scene I Yavanna now says ....lead us and all of Arda to ruin!.....instead of .....lead us and our word to ruin!.....hope that's okay with you. I just thought she would be more apt to say specific Arda rather than generic world.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 12, 2007 12:33:24 GMT -5
In order to make things easier to read through, I've put the script -- edited and unedited portions -- up onto Google Documents. Then I've shared them with the SilmFilm Gmail account, concerning which you should have just received a PM. The unedited version is split into two parts, arbitrarily, at around Scene 41.
As to the changes... well, making huge alterations is the sort of thing I do, I'd be a fool to complain when other do the same thing. (Seriously -- my longest story has been through three or four iterations, changed its timeframe, location and entire main cast, and right before I abandoned it lost the sole remaining link back to its original form. A single scene changing is nothing compared to that). And they're good changes. One thing I keep forgetting is that this is a film script, not a stage-play -- you can move around a lot. I have a habit of sticking two people in the centre of the screen and having them talk a lot. Not really always a good thing.
I think immediately following this we do need dialogue -- either that, or a shift to someone else in a different scene. We can't just go straight to Feanor doing something else, it'd be just confusing. Changing might not necessarily be a bad thing -- in the original version, we don't leave our focus on Feanor until scene 7. Throwing in something else -- Melkor rabble-rousing, or a scene with the children... actually, that latter is a good idea, now I come to think of it. Go from the in-laws arriving at the forge to Maedhros and Fingon talking, with a few of the others around -- Maglor, maybe, and Turgon. Not sure whether we should bring in the Finarfinions at this point or wait for the "party scene" (or whatever the family gathering needed may be). But have them chat, and then bring one of the adults in to tell them about the "party". Not sure who -- it wouldn't necessarily do to start up a confrontation, so perhaps just Fingolfin?
[Scene 2.5, end] [Fingolfin enters the room, and on seeing the two talking, smiles slightly. Fingon looks round] Fingon: Father! I thought you were still out hunting. Fingolfin: As if I would forgo your cousin's birthing day for such a thing. [Fingon looks startled -- and guilty. Fingolfin smiles knowingly] Well, you cannot be expected to remember all such occasions. Fingon: [Looking sheepish] Perhaps not, but still. [He turns to Maedhros] Will you be there, cousin? [Maedhros looks uncomfortable] Maedhros: Galadriel... is not precisely fond of my father or my house, you recall. I doubt we're invited. [Fingolfin frowns] Fingolfin: Be that as it may, Father has asked you all to come... it seems he wishes to turn this into a full family gathering, to celebrate the coming-of-age of the youngest of the House of Finwe. [Maedhros looks pleased] Maedhros: Why, then we shall surely be there. Father will never turn down an invitation from Grandfather. [His expression slips a little] I only hope he is in a good mood... [Wipe to Scene III]
Just a quick, throw-it-together idea for, as it says, the end of the scene. I've no idea what they were talking about, undoubtedly something thrilling and plot-relevant. Something that'll introduce them to us as the most important third-generation House Finwe members for this film.
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Post by tamitha on Nov 12, 2007 22:03:05 GMT -5
* blushing* Thank you for the compliment about the changes being good. I really am trying/hoping to please you. Screwing around with another writer's work is very touchy business. When an author pen's something it's....well.... it's like their baby, it is from their heart and soul, it is their creation and anyone else who handles it must do so with lots of TLC. Re the G-mail account: Thank you so much. I was wondering about that, but I was afraid to ask. I saw the advertisement for it in the heading, but had no idea how to access it. Now I feel like a real member, instead of just a tolerated red-headed step child. ha, ha And now " Touche!" Now I am the one who is overwhelmed and has " so....many....reading" I had not gotten round to it because we are still working out the kinks in Scene I and II and trying to figure out how to lead into Scene III, but my next question was going to be " Where is the rest of the script?" I think I will not be posting anytime soon as I have a lot reading to do and trying absorb some of it. Just a couple of things to bring to your attention in the Edited script on Google Docs. Somethings that we had discussed and agreed upon, but for some reason didn't make it into the edited version on Google Docs. You may want to go in and tweak it: 1. You didn't want Tulkas to be sarcastic, so I changed his lead in to [ mockingly, as if making fun of her, plays into his impulsiveness, maybe even makes gestures with his hands] Oh, yes dear, sweet Nienna.......2. You also wanted Yavanna to say 'lead us and our world to ruin', which I actually changed to 'lead us and all of Arda to ruin'3. I think you wanted to fine tune the dialogue between Aule, Mahtan and Finwe when they are hanging out in front of Aule's forge. I do agree it needs adjusting, I was just so eager to present the idea to you that I wasn't focusing on the particulars. Re screenplay vs stageplay: Yes, this is to our advantage, we really can bounce around. I mean look at LotR-especially as you got deeper and deeper into the movie(s) you had Frodo and Sam over here doing this and Aragorn and Gimili and Legolas over there doing that and Pippen and Meri somewhere else doing something altogether different and the viewer was bounced all over the place, but never quite lost, so we really can get away with a lot. We almost have to in order to pull in all the information you want to and still keep the movie within a 2 or 2 1/2 hour time slot, which is about all the average viewer can handle in this hyperactive, caffiene addicted world we live in. People don't even want to read anymore for the most part, which makes life rough for authors. Books today almost by necessity must be film adaptable or you will never reach the masses and the few who do read (like my-self) almost demand that the movie follow the book, not perfectly, but as close as possible. I like your idea so far for the end of Scene II. We will think about it, run some ideas by each other and flesh it out. It'll work, with some time and patience. I think Melkor's rabble-rousing should come in a bit later since right now we are really just trying to introduce the house of Finwe and highlight the sibling rivalry and family instability that was the furtile ground for Melkor's treachory to take root in. We don't want to push that out too far though because we don't want the audience to forget his unchaining and the menacing look at the end of Scene I, but the ground work must be laid first. Okay so, let me think about how to tie up the end of Scene II and look at the script on Google Docs and I'll get back with you. Oh, yeah that's a question I do have. Are we going to continue the editing process here, and will you then move the scenes to Google Docs as they are completed or are we going to work off of Google Docs now? Personally I like the scene by scene format that we have here, plus anybody who visits, or joins up or comes back to us can see where we are and what we are doing, but I will follow your lead. Whatever you think best is fine with me. You are after all "The Boss".
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Post by tamitha on Nov 13, 2007 11:07:35 GMT -5
Hello, I'm back sooner than expected. Try this out for the end of Scene II and see what you think. It will make the scene longer, but not that much. Most of it is visual, and the dialogue is short and to the point. I kept almost everything you suggested as is, just a few minor changes to adapt it to the setting:
[Before Nerdanel has a chance to respond, there is a knock at the door] Fëanor: [Shouting] It's open! Come in! [The door opens and Aule, Finwe and Mahtan enter.] [Fade to black, snap to…] [ Ten riders on horseback, a returning hunting party, the party includes the seven sons of Feanor, and the three children of Fingolfin, Fingon, Turgon and Aredhel. Maedhros and Fingon ride side by side at the head of the party, but the others are scattered about in a group behind. Aredhel is bringing up the rear leading a pack horse that has a great hart (or buck for our friends who may not know old English) strapped across it, the reward of their hunt. All including Aredhel are dressed in hunting clothing and have bows and arrows either strapped upon themselves or their horses. All are laughing and talking and bantering with each other, in good spirits as they approach the home of their uncle and/or father Fingolfin. Fingolfin is standing out in front of his home watching them approach, he is smiling and pleased to see them all getting on so well. Fingon sees his father and breaks away from Maedhros and rides up to his father.]
Fingon: Father! You should have come with us. Aredhel has shown her skill once again and brought down the stag that Maedhros and I have been after for weeks. Fingolfin: [laughs heartily] So I see! I want to hear all about the entire adventure, but at another time. You really must gather up Turgon and Aredhel and get ready to go your Grandfather’s house. Your mother has been fretting about your absence for hours. [while Fingolfin is still speaking Maedhros rides up next to Fingon] How quickly you forget your cousin’s birthday. [Fingon looks startled -- and guilty. Fingolfin smiles knowingly] Well, you cannot be expected to remember all such occasions. Fingon: [Looking sheepish] I’m sorry Father, Mother, must be beside herself, especially where Ardhel is concerned. [He turns to Maedhros] Will you be attending Galadriel's birthday celebration also, cousin? [Maedhros looks uncomfortable] Maedhros: Galadriel... is not precisely fond of my father or my house, you recall. I doubt we're invited. [Fingolfin frowns] Fingolfin: Be that as it may, Father has asked you all to come... it seems he wishes to turn this into a full family gathering, to celebrate the coming-of-age of the youngest of the House of Finwe. [Maedhros looks pleased] Maedhros: Why, then we shall surely be there. Father will never turn down an invitation from Grandfather. [His expression slips a little] I only hope he is in a good mood... [Wipe to Scene III]
Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot, I also changed Mahtan's line from, "I remember ......" to the following:
Mahtan: Yes, much to the grief of my daughter and grandsons, I must say. My heart tells me that soon I shall bitterly rue the day that Aule and I taught him the lore of metalwork.
Does that work better for you? I took it straight from the book where it says Mahtan bitterly rued the day he taught Feanor the lore of metalwork that Aule had taught to him.
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