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Post by Maeglin on May 9, 2005 6:53:24 GMT -5
Berzerker, we're not repressing you. This isn't a Stalinist machine...and if you believe it is, specific criticisms are far more constructive than vague negativity and waffling about how you're a film nerd...
By all means continue to edit and comment. We long for imput. But it doesn't seem to me that this is a project in its deaththroes...rather, it needs careful nurturing!
I fear that the modifier "constructive" has slipped from your criticism. It won't do any good unless you tell us precisely where you believe we've gone wrong.
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Post by Berzerker_prime on May 9, 2005 12:31:00 GMT -5
Ah, but leaving can help, if it calls attention to lurking problems that have just gone unnoticed through no fault of anyone here. I've seen it happen plenty of times. Look, I'm sorry if my last message came off harsh. I'm sure if you were talking to me in person, it wouldn't sound as bad. I've had a rather succinct style for expository drilled into me by obsessive English teachers and it sounds rather impersonal at times. So if it felt like a flame to you, I apologize. Anyways... Yes, things need to be changed to make it work on film. Yes, it's best to make things true to the book. No where did I say that I object to things being different from the books. What I object to is changing the spirit of the books. The story is, after all, character driven. So, if the characters don't seem to fit into the setting, it ruins the whole thing. And the speech is what I percieve to be the main problem. There's formal and informal and then there's anachronism. "Hi," "okay," and using nicknames are anachronism, not being informal. To us, it's informal, but it wouldn't be to the Elves. And it's an easy fix, besides. "Hi" is easily changed to "hello" and "okay" is easily changed to "all right." So, to me, there's no excuse for it. And on the long-beaten-to-death topic of nicknames, I am firmly in the "don't use them, ever" camp. Elven names have actual meanings to them, both spiritual and litteral. Saying "hi 'Danel" to Nerdanel is like saying "yo, Po! What up!" to the Pope. You just don't do it. We do it in our society, but Elves would never have done it. In fact, the only Tolkienian society that I remember ever using nicknames is the Hobbits. There's epithets, as in "Legolas Greenleaf" or "Gimli Elf-friend," but those are hardly the same thing. Elves do not ever alter or shorten their given names, familliarity or no. I could go on, but I'm running short on time. I have to get down to campus for a final exam. I'l just end by saying that I would be happy, if not eager, to do some editing work. The catch is that you have to be open to what I say and I am going to be brutally honest about what I think of it. I will give con/crit, but I won't sugar coat it. So if you want me to edit, be prepared to see something that looks completely different come back to you. Also, you need to be clear on one more thing; do you want someone to edit or do you want someone to beta? Editing means just going in and changing things. Beta means giving suggestions for what one thinks should be changed, which is what people have been doing and it's been met with "but this is how I want to do it" as the counter-argument. If you want me to beta, there doesn't seem to be much point in it, to me. But if you want me to edit, I will edit with a capitol E and a weed-whacker, so you'll need to be prepared. But it still doesn't solve the lingering problem of the lack of interest that seems to be pervading this project. I urge you to step back for a moment and consider why people don't seem to care about it as much as you do. Yours, Berz.
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Post by Berzerker_prime on May 9, 2005 12:35:00 GMT -5
Berzerker, we're not repressing you. This isn't a Stalinist machine...and if you believe it is, specific criticisms are far more constructive than vague negativity and waffling about how you're a film nerd... Ouch. I don't mind tell you, that stung a little bit. Can you please choose your words a little more carefully? I never said anyone was doing it on purpose. I'm telling you that I percieve a brutish consensus emerging. It's not the same thing. I'm just calling attention to another viewpoint, that is all. I blame no one for it, it just happened. Yours, Berz.
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Post by Huinesoron on May 9, 2005 12:39:41 GMT -5
I'm not sure why 'hi' is an anachronism -- most civilisations feature shortened forms of the word 'Hello'. Every line of dialogue I write is anachronistic, but I don't see that as more so. As for the other, I've been trying to avoid 'okay', did I slip up and put it in there?
Yes, the nicknames have been dropped from the version on my computer. Nerdanel is Nerdanel all the way through. I think I've kept one instance of Feanor as 'Nor, because it's an acceptable split -- calling him 'Fire' would work. (Although, I will point out, Elves /do/ shorten their names -- Morifinwe, AKA Caranthir, is also known as Moryo. The same goes for most of the other Sons of Feanor. But yes, it's a different form of splitting).
And what I want -- need, rather -- is for someone to edit this and leave me /out/ of it. Once I'm done with this version, I'll step back and let everyone else take control.
And the reason people don't care about the project as much as me is that it was my project. I'm the reason this thing exists. And you might want to note that a lot of the people who've forgotten this thing have nothing to do with the Script -- where are all the Artists?
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Post by BeautyID on May 9, 2005 13:53:12 GMT -5
Berz,
All right, first of all, I've read the Silmarillion a few times, and I know for a fact that the story is NOT character driven. It is plot driven. 99% of the characters are completely flat, single-trait beings.
That said, I've read the script, and I honestly think that Huinesoron's characterisation is about as close as anyone could come to correct, without Tolkien rising from the grave in instructing them. I'm curious to know what 'correct' characterisation you had in mind, when there really isn't much characterisation at all.
I understand that you are concerned about the film, but I'm really not liking your reaction. You came in with this holier-than-thou attitute, insulted the script (a bad teen movie? Honestly, what on /earth/?), and then declared that you were leaving. That's not exactly helpful.
You also seem to be assuming that this is some kind of multi-million dollar budget production here. I have a reality check for you: it's not. It's a few people scattered over different continents who are working on this in their free time, trying to put together what they can. And so far, I think they've done a great job.
As for the script: are there problems with it? Of course. /No one/ can write the perfect script on their first go. Or their second, or their third, or their 800th. If you know anything about the Lord of the Rings movies, you'll know how much they changed that script. That's why there is such a thing as editing. What you seem to basically be saying is, 'I don't like this script because it isn't how I would write it.' Would you prefer to write the script yourself?
You're also wrong about the nicknames. Elves DID use nicknames. Indeed, I know for a fact that every single son of Feanor had a nickname. Please try to at least have facts to back up your accusations before you throw them at people.
When it comes down to it, it's Huinesoron's decision, but I'm not sure I want you to edit anything. Yes, you made some valid points, but you could have done so in a much less condescending and rude manner. By all means, give you opinion, but it is not necessary to slap people in the face with it, and that's what you've done. All you're doing is creating hostility.
The impression I got from you was, "This project sucks! No wonder nobody likes it! I know better than all of you because I'm into film, so let ME tell you what to do. And if you don't like it, you're obviously childish and repressing people's opinions.'
This project is supposed to be fun. I'm sure there are things that need changing, but the movie's not coming out tomorrow. We have plenty of time to work on it.
If this is not the way you want things done, perhaps you should not be involved.
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Post by Maeglin on May 9, 2005 15:51:29 GMT -5
VIOLA: Good sirs! Put up your swords!
(Enter Iago, Laertes, Macbeth, Turin and Maeglin. They chop Viola into tiny, tiny, pieces. Sorry, I have occasional peculiar flights of fancy.)
The thing is, I think Berserker has plenty of valid points, and some I can sympathise with. But a sort of struggle for high round is obscuring any actual intellectual interchange. Why don't you, Berserker, put your worries to us point to point so your case can be properly mulled over? Then Mandos can deal with you.
EDIT: I'm in the Berserk camp, for example, about nicknames-I find them a bit sentimental and irritating, but more importantly confusing to viewers. But I'm not going to force this. I'm also not mad on "Hi". These are the same points Hador raised rather more tentatively. But I think Huinesoron's style also contains a certain vitality I don't want to smother, and now is not the time for pruning and tidying.
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Post by Huinesoron on May 9, 2005 16:03:03 GMT -5
I'll bow to your collective wisdom on the nicknames. Let's see... what might I have used? 'Danel, which is being cut. 'Nor, which... well, I can't remember the context, so I'll look over. Tulkas is Lord Astaldo at one point, which I'll admit is somewhat gratuitous, and I'll change it. Nienna is Nia once, which again, may not make sense. Anything else? I don't think I've used any others. If anyone spots any, tell me and I'll throw them up to debate.
And 'Hi'... eh. I don't think I've used it more than once, and there was a specific reason for it. We'll see. [Scuttles off to look for nicknames]
Well, that was productive. All instances of 'Danel, 'Nor, Nia and Astaldo hopefully removed. And, to make everyone happy, the one instance of Hi that I could find is gone to. I have no idea why I wanted Finarfin to sound like a typical American teenager, but that's certainly the voice I was hearing on that line. It's 'Hello', now.
And, for the record, in the fifty-five-odd pages of the script, there was not a single instance of 'Okay'. Berz, don't make assumptions like that. I'm not completely stupid, and I don't like people implying that I am.
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Post by Berzerker_prime on May 9, 2005 17:22:11 GMT -5
Yikes, two hours of blathering on paper about the Ancient Roman practices of patronage and senatorial families and I come back to this! At least I've only got one more final exam to go until I'm done with undergraduate life forever... But, in the meantime, there have been some remarks that illustrate the main reason I'm alarmed. Leaving aside for the moment issues concerning the screenplay itself, here's a few things I've noticed. Begging pardon, but this project also wouldn't exist without other people. I was rather miffed by this comment and I'm not sure why others aren't. The project only exists because of one person? Why is that? This is a group project, isn't it? Or was I lured here all those months ago under false pretenses? And this, I feel, is what I've had to resort to to get anyone around here to listen to me. I've been making these exact same arguments since the first draft of the prologue was posted and none of them have been given the time of day. And was promptly told that was not the way it was going to be. That's told. Anyone notice a trend? These are the things that worry me the most. A lack of discussion as ideas are dismissed out of hand and people who want to participate not really having a say. The leaders are pushing on ahead before the rest of us really get a chance to say anything. Is it the project of the select few? Yes. My objection is that it shouldn't be. As long as all this remains the project of the select few no one else is going to care about it at all, interest will be lost, and the project will die. If you need examples, I saw exactly that happen with the Robotech Audio Fanfiction Project a couple years ago. Then, we had the script for a whole first episode and had even cast a narrator before the subsequent writers realized that none of them had the same vision for the story line and everything was in shambles (essentially, the same place Silm Film is right now, from where I sit). There was also a Babylon 5 Choose Your Own Adventure project a couple years before that that rushed into story-writing so fast that no one ever knew what the story line(s) were supposed to be. That project was so short-lived, I don't think we ever even got around to making an independent message board or webpage for it, but I've got old snips of writing on my hard drive still. Anyways, that's the biggest rub I have with this project right now. It's supposed to be a group project and it isn't. I'll address production issues in a separate post. Berz.
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Post by Huinesoron on May 9, 2005 17:35:54 GMT -5
I suggested it. I started writing the script. I'm not saying other people aren't important to it, but I started it. [Shrugs] If you find that offensive, fine.
Oh, and no, I don't notice a 'trend' in one instance.
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Post by BeautyID on May 9, 2005 17:44:27 GMT -5
Yes, ultimately, it is Huinesoron's decision because he is the one writing the script. I don't think he'd want to just let someone come in and change whatever they wanted on it, after he had worked so hard, but hey, maybe I'm wrong...
Just because this is a group project doesn't mean that people are going to agree with everything you say. Maybe the reason you haven't got much attention is because the people who are writing the scripts don't want to use your ideas. They could be great ideas, but ultimately it /is/ their choice. No one's going to be completely happy, but if everyone was allowed to change anything they wanted, we'd /really/ never get this done.
I for one do respect your right to voice your opinions, but as I said before, please try to do it in a less inflamatory manner. Right now you're acting as if the whole project is doomed unless everyone does what you say. Basically, you're kind of overreacting.
I don't want to start a big argument or anything, I was just rather miffed with the way you presented yourself. I don't think you realise how hard Huinesoron's been working on this, and you came across as being very insulting.
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Post by Berzerker_prime on May 9, 2005 18:08:58 GMT -5
More from the doomsday cultist. Get ready... Being an archetype is being a character. I rather doubt that most of the Silmarillion even would have happened if FĂ«anor had been the wise, understanding archetype. What does that mean? That means character-driven plot. But aside from that is another issue. Flat characters work in the type of text Tolkien wrote for the Sil. They almost never work for film (and in fact, I have seen some that have worked, but they were all short films and most of them were rather abstract in nature). The characters are what the audience connects to so to have them be as flat as Tolkien wrote them will not work for the prolonged narrative style being proposed for the project. What!? Where did I ever give you that impression? Point to the passage. I've known from the get-go this is nothing but a fan production with a bunch of people giving their time and talent to the cause. It can't be otherwise or we'd be hunted down by Christopher Tolkien and sued! This is something I've been conscious of from the beginning. Your reality check just bounced, dearie. Non-existant budget doesn't enter into a single thing I've ever said. One of the best movies I've ever seen, in fact, was made by one guy who basically worked in his garage and grabbed a few friends off the street to be actors. It's a wonderful comedy about not having the money or support to make a movie (yay for meta-film!), and at the same time a scathing commentary on the film-making industry as a whole. Exactly one print of it exists in the world, owned by the guy who made the movie, Mike Jitlove. It's called the Wizard of Speed and Time and I highly reccomend it, if you can track it down. Funny you should mention that because I got into the project to contribute to the script writing. When I discovered that the scripts were going to be written by one person and that that and who the writers were going to be had already been decided before I had a say, I threw myself into the beta process. And we can all see where that's led. I got frustrated enough to start this row. You know, in the Rennaissence, that remark would have been grounds for a second-degree duel. Care to take me on? I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that I and others had been offering up something of a modicum of knowledge about film only to be completely ignored. Am I an expert? Heck no! Have I learned a thing or two? Yes. I won't even mince words on that. I have learned a few things like "don't have twenty-minute prologues" and "ditch information the audience doesn't need." Hate to differ with you on a point that doesn't matter, but I fully admit to having taken the low ground. I fight dirty when I need to. It got everyone's attention. My mistake. I'm a PPCer, I read a lot of crap and it starts running together with the not-so-crap at times. And that particular anachronism is one I've caught myself using before I edited them out, so I'm sensative to it. My apologies. But I don't recall implying you were stupid for using it, just that it was something that needed changing. Might as well let this stuff get chewed on a bit... Yours, Berz.
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Post by Berzerker_prime on May 9, 2005 18:38:32 GMT -5
Then he shouldn't be bandying about requests for editing because that is what editing is. Do you even know what my ideas are? Do you? No, I know how hard he's worked on it. I've worked nearly as hard just to get listened to. Not only that, but, as I said, I was told when I signed on that this was a group project. It's still being advertised as such. But it really isn't. Months ago, when I was still laboring under this assumption, I even posted an example of another way to do the prologue. What was I told? "But we already have it, this is how we're doing it, let Huinesoron do the writing and fall in line with it." He's had his writing insulted? What bigger insult than to never have a piece of writing given the time of day? Quite frankly, I don't know why I didn't voice these concerns then. I probably should have, in fact. But the fact of the matter is that opposing viewpoints on how the script should be written were never considered, not even when there was someone else willing to do the work on it. I was snubbed, plain and simple. No one since has even bothered with trying and why should they? You advertised this as a group project and that was why I signed on. You put out a request on PPC for writers when you already had them. That means you lied. So, this whole thing was started more as a warning to you that these issues exsit. You wonder where everyone has gone? Now I've told you. Most people just give up and leave without ever saying why, without ruffling feathers. I'm telling you why I'm leaving, calling attention to the issues, and giving you the fighting chance of dealing with them on my way out. And yes, I still have no desire to continue working on this project. My opinions differ and therefore are not valued. I've been shoved into a box by the door and tried to say things but have been ignored entirely. In short, I've been insulted by the actions of a clique. There is no high ground. Yours, Berz.
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Post by Huinesoron on May 9, 2005 19:08:56 GMT -5
No. Because you won't tell us.
Well, let's see. What /were/ you told?
That was from Chronicler. There are no other comments on that thread. What /else/ happened as a result of your saying that? A revised prologue is what. With, hey, look at that, less attention to some of the earlier stuff, and more to some of the things you highlighted.
Incidentally, wandering in and saying 'Your characterisation sucks' is all very easy. Perhaps you could have done so /before/ it reached fifty-something pages?
As for the fact that the scripting was 'already decided' when you got here, I don't believe that was /ever/ said. If you wanted to write something, you could have done what Maeglin and Nerdanel did and just written it. But hey, you /didn't/. Why not?
Oh, and for the record, I'm still fine with people editing this after I'm finished. I've said that.
Drop the victim complex and help us here, because leaving isn't going to help. Unless you /want/ to see this project fail.
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Post by Maeglin on May 10, 2005 1:18:33 GMT -5
Look, this project isn't falling, Berserker or no Berserker. 5 members have just poured in. We have two scripts almost ready to go to second draft. Art is developing slowly, but at least developing. Even music has made a start. Let's look on the bright side. And no one is losing interest. The only thing that will drag this down is all this slapping.
Where is Saphy, anyway? We need a Voice of Unity...
Berzerker, at one point you virtually yelled at BeautyID that she couldn't argue with you as she didn't know what your ideas were. That's exaxtly my problem. You haven't volunteered any alternative ladders while chopping poor old Huinesoron to bits.
If you want to show your quality, write something. One alternative prologue is doomed to sink. Post some edited scenes from Huinesoron's script or mine. Write full on rival versions. Start the Tale of Turin. When we see products like that, full of style, we'll take you seriously and know what you have in mind. But now? How can we? You've confessed to "fighting dirty". You've assumed an air of lofty experience that would irritate the Pope. And you have rendered almost nothing unto Caesar. (Undergraduate essays aside!)
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Post by Manveru on Jul 6, 2005 20:19:45 GMT -5
i realize the last post in this thread was like 2 months ago, but i think this is a good spot to put in some inspiration. Projects like these have worked. There was a movie made entirely by fans called Star Wars: Revelations www.panicstruckpro.com/revelations/revelations.htmlSo how bout we get back on track with this project. i did some quick sketches for elven (noldor) armour that i could post later.
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