Elianna
Journyer
Isn't Eldarion adorable!
Posts: 46
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Post by Elianna on Nov 18, 2004 19:25:20 GMT -5
Not to be pushy or anything... I think it would work better if we talked about the script on a different thread than the screenplay itself. A few points, mostly having to do with "what's our audience?" So who is our audience in this thing? Us? If so, then everything's cool. But if not, then it's probably people who haven't read the book or heard about it. These people will not understand the prologue. Far too many Elvish names, one right after another, some not to be used again. That said, is quoting the book the best thing to do here? I think it's gorgeous, and easily understand what's happening, but others aren't Tolkien-freaks. Also along that line is 1) We might want to put more time in between the destruction of the Lamps and the Awakening of the Elves. The point of this would be to have something so that it doesn't look like Oromë's wandering on about peacefully on Melkor's undisputed turf when he finds the elves. 2) Maybe some clarification that the Elves are not some other Valar-meteor people. The other main thing is a wondering about the time-period of the dialogue. The speech of the Valar was in vast contrast to the quoting of Silm in the Prologue. We need to decide one way or another. Or if the Prologue will be quoting and the rest more normal, then perhaps a less important scene is needed for the transition. And 3 other little things: First, I think it'd be best if the Valar were called their normal name the first time named. For instince, Tulkas is first called Lord Astaldo, only then is he called "Tulkas." Second, What about the Teleri? Third, What's up with Aulë? I have a friend who would kill you if he read that. I really do love the idea of doing this. It's a stupendous start! You can completely disreguard anything I say if you want, I haven't even read the book. .....Now everyone hates me......
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 19, 2004 4:29:50 GMT -5
[Shrugs] I tried to write a prologue that would make sense to people who haven't read the book... but as I /have/ read the book, I can't be an accurate judge. That's why I'm posting it up here.
Tulkas... I think I got a little mixed up on whether I'd named him. You're right, it's best to call everyone by normal named first off. I should check Nienna, too, I may have stuck her as Nia in her first naming...
The Teleri really didn't fit in the prologue -- it's six minutes long as it is. I plan to introduce their story during the Alqualonde sequences, either in flashback or in dialogue.
As for Aule... what's wrong with him? He's an inventor, he's allowed to be devoted to his work to the exclusion of actually paying attention. The Aule lines were actually written to be delivered in an English accent... plus it ties in with pre-Silmaril Feanor, who has the same sort of 'Someone knocked on the door oh wait there's that broom I was looking for' approach to life, as will be seen.
Ah, yes, and the audience. Considering this is (unless we a) get permission from the Tolkien Estate or b) get PJ to take this script and get permission from the Estate) going to be a free film on the internet, I'd /guess/ that most people reading it will be Silm. fans, or at least have some idea of the Arda mythology. But I can't say for certain, so... [Shrugs]
If you want to rework any of the screenplay, I can try and make some changes.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 19, 2004 6:04:29 GMT -5
A couple-three more points.
Tulkas is named twice in the prologue, both of which times he is on-screen. I'd assume this would provide the necessary indication of who he is.
The contrasting styles of speech is intentional. Artanis is detailing the history of an entire world, which she wasn't actually present for, and thus takes a very formal tone. Any Valar doing what amount to formal speeches -- Manwe almost always, Melkor and Nienna in their pleas -- will use overly-formal speech patterns. Tulkas, on the other hand, doesn't care for speeches -- he's a Power of action, and tends to be a little blunt. Others, like Yavanna, Nienna in normal mode, and Nessa, spend a lot of time relating to the elves, and thus also tend to slip into informal speech.
And regarding the elvish names thing: Some of them were not used again immediately, such as Eru, Noldor, and several Vala names, but will pop up in the main film. Others, notably Ormal, Illuin, Aman and Eldar, can be excluded completely from the script. I've gone back and edited these so the first two are absent, and the others are Valinor and Elves respectively. I've also edited a line to allow for your points regarding the Awakening of the Elves. The following line replaces Artanis' voiceover, when she says But the Valar did not forget Middle-earth. Varda, the Queen of the Valar and bride of Manwë, took the dew of Telperion and kindled new stars in the sky, that Middle-earth might have light.
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Artanis: [VO] After many ages had passed, and Valinor was fully wrought, the Valar turned their thoughts once more to Middle-earth, and the coming of the Children of Ilúvatar, who would be born of Arda, and part of it, as the Valar were not. Varda, the Queen of the Valar and bride of Manwë, took the dew of Telperion and kindled new stars in the sky, that the Children, for the time of their coming was close at hand, might have light.
~~~~~~~
Hope that helps.
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Post by Chronicler on Nov 19, 2004 9:09:06 GMT -5
I really loved that you wrote him like that. That's just how I pictured him. I thought the prologue worked very well; I'm not much of a Silm expert (only on my second time reading it ) and I could follow it perfectly. I'll have to try it out on some of my friends/relatives who haven't read Silm and see if they get it. Great job so far, IMHO, hS! ~ Chronicler ~
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Post by Berzerker_prime on Nov 19, 2004 9:36:21 GMT -5
Okay, so... not to sound like the wannabe film student that I am... Personally, while I like the attention you gave to the creation and Ea and everything leading up to the release of Melkor... Er... That's a very long prologue. Film prologues are supposed to be five minutes, tops. This took me fifteen to read. And once the actual filming happens, it'll probably be even longer. Audiences don't like going that long without meeting the main characters. They're either bored right off the bat or come to care about characters that are abandonned right afterward. Neither is a good way to start a film. Much as I love Ainulindale and the history of the lamps, personally, I think they should be axed in favor of brevity. Pick it up from the founding of Valinor, the kindling of Laurelin and Telperion, and the chaining of Melkor. Not much else is really needed than that. And it'll cut back on how many names get thrown around. Recall the Prologue in FoTR; it was so bare-bones they didn't even name Gil-galad, even though we saw him. Nor did they go into the history of why, exactly, there was no king in Gondor. It wasn't needed for people to understand the main story line. Better yet, mention the chaining of Melkor and pick up the prologue in earnest from the awakening of the Elves in Cuivienen. Follow them on the the gret journey to Valinor (sets up a nice reveal on the splendor of Valinor, too!) and treat the births of Feanor, Fingolfin, and Finarfin as well as the rest of the prologue (without that, the feud between the two houses of Finwe makes no sense), and then lapse into the unchaining of Melkor as scene one. If you give me a couple of days, I can whip something up and show you what I mean by all this. The great thing about cinema is the visual aspect of it. We don't need to go into the background of why Melkor is a jerk in order to get across the point that he is. In any case, I guess my main point is that I think the prologue needs to be trimmed. Please don't hate me! Bado na siidh! Berz.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 19, 2004 11:01:43 GMT -5
At 3/4 of my standard out-loud reading speed, the whole of Artanis' monologue took six minutes. That's 150 wpm.
Just so you know.
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Post by Chronicler on Nov 19, 2004 12:21:00 GMT -5
I agree with hS on this. Plus, what may seem very long on paper actually comes to a short amount of time on screen.
And we don't hate you, Berzerker. 'S the reason we have a forum for this: to voice opinions and talk about everything. *hugs*
~ Chronicler ~
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Post by Berzerker_prime on Nov 19, 2004 13:46:41 GMT -5
Not so much in the format it's in now. True, the screenplay format gives a ratio of about one page to about one minute. But what we have now is no where near screenplay format. It's a script, yes, but not a screenplay. What's there will actually get us something of about two or three minutes per page. Too long. Reading something aloud is not the same as putting images and narration to film. The mechanics of cinema just make the two not equatable. Not only that but it includes information that we don't need and it lacks information that we do need. The death of Miriel, Finwe's marraige to Indis, and the births of Fingolfin and Finarfin need to be adressed. Those are the sources of the strifes that Melkor goes on to prey upon and from which many other problems spring. They cannot be ignored. We don't need to start with "There was Eru." Prologues should be as short as possible, get across only the information that is absolutely needed to understand the main part, and should leave aside anything else. By starting with Ainulindale, we get quite a ways off the ball. The main story line is about the theft of the Silmarilli and the wars surrounding their ultimate fate. By starting with Ainulindale, we make it about the designs of Illuvatar, which are only brought forth in the history that ensues; too abstract a concept for film. Not only that, but Ainulindale is extremely visually abstract. Just how are you going to represent the dischord of Melkor visually while the music is playing? Besides all that, I'd just point out that PJ et al tried starting with "There was Eru." in the FoTR prologue. They couldn't make it work. And they're not the only ones. I've got a proof of concept mostly written. I'll post it sometime tonight, probably. Adaptation is a hard thing, especially when the source is something so vast as Tolkien. One has to pick and choose what parts of the story get told becuase we cannot tell them all. Anywho, I'll take a breath for now and continue to rant later, I'm sure... Berz.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 19, 2004 16:08:35 GMT -5
My rationale was this:
The strife of House Finwe is actually dealt with in Scene 4, which I'll probably post in a separate thread later today. My aim was to put the whole of the Silmarillion into a film, /not/ to have to cut bits out. Yes, I realise this wouldn't work in a commercial film, but I'm not making a commercial film. If PJ wants my script, he can get professional editors in.
You /know/ that cutting anything out will lead to fans going 'Oy! That's not right!'. As this really is a film for the fans, it's a toss-up between a slightly longer prologue, or a lack of story.
I thought I explained this in the script... the whole tinging-red of half the Ainur while the dischord grows in strength? Maybe I wasn't clear enough...
Anyhow. I'd really like to get everything in. If you can think of a way to trim it down further, /without/ losing the plot elements, that'd be good. If you can't... well. We'll see how the whole script turns out, and if I can fit bits of it in in the actual film.
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Post by Berzerker_prime on Nov 19, 2004 21:53:15 GMT -5
You /know/ that cutting anything out will lead to fans going 'Oy! That's not right!'. As this really is a film for the fans, it's a toss-up between a slightly longer prologue, or a lack of story. *snip* Anyhow. I'd really like to get everything in. If you can think of a way to trim it down further, /without/ losing the plot elements, that'd be good. If you can't... well. We'll see how the whole script turns out, and if I can fit bits of it in in the actual film. To be blunt, that's going to be an editing nightmare. The time frames (or lack thereof, in some cases) just don't lend themselves well to doing that and starting with Ainulindalë<br> I love the music of the Ainur, I really do. And I've often dreamed of ways it can be put into visual form. But it doesn't work as a prologue for a larger story. What it has to do with anything else is just too confusing. It takes up too much time as a prologue and then to go into the history of the lamps and the creation of the two trees as well? You're going to lose your audience, no matter who it is. Especially since Ainulindalë is something that most Tolkien fans ever skip reading when they re-read Sil (maybe not you or I, but I know I LOT of people do) because they just don't get what it has to do with anything other than to establish that Melkor is a jerk. I'm telling you now, it's going to give you more headaches than it's worth. It's a nightmare for audiences to watch it, it's a nightmare to visualize, it's a nightmare to edit, and it's a nightmare to put to music. And please forgive me for pointing this out, but I saw no consensus on what audience we were going for. Not only that, but no decisions on how we were going to set all this up, what we were going to focus on, etc. It's great that you're working on a script and all, and we're all greatful you're willing, but who else here knows what, exactly, we're going to do with all of this. I, for one, would like to know what characters I'm going to be asked to draw or voice, what footage I'm may be asked to edit. I've been a part of projects like this before and they all fell flat and died because one person decided on most of the story line and either didn't come through and left the rest of us with no information or just didn't let anyone else have a say. If this is going to be successful, we need to decide on this stuff right here, right now, before the final version of a script comes through. We are in what's known as pre-production. Script is mid-phase, at best. We first have to decide what we're going to do. Plus, I'd like to point out that no book has every been successfully adapted to film without changing something. It cannot be done. The media are just too different. We've already mentioned, for example, that we can't figure out a place to put the story of Turín Turambar. Anyhow, to show that a diversity of ideas is still too prevailent, I'm posting my proof-of-concept in the prologue thread. Go see it, don't go see it, it's entirely up to you all. I'm still holding out hope that we can all make this work. But at the rate we're going right now, we're doomed from the get-go. Hate to be a naysayer and a pessimist, but that's where it's heading. It's going to degenerate into confusion. Well, if you guys didn't hate me before, I'll bet someone here does by now... Guess I'll just go slink off to the PPC for a while... Berz.
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Elianna
Journyer
Isn't Eldarion adorable!
Posts: 46
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Post by Elianna on Nov 20, 2004 1:32:00 GMT -5
*sits back and laughs at the situation: We're saying all the smug responses that we hate to hear PJ and Phillipa say about leaving out Tom and messing with Faramir*
I feel a need to moderate.
If we really want to show this film to more than just ourselves, I would listen to Berz's suggestions. We need to pick an audience. We need to pick a medium. We need to make sure we have all the tech support we need. We need to pin down which story lines we'll give prominence. Then script.
PleasepleasepleasepleasePLEASE, keep writing hS. I'm more on your side and would help you write the script if I had read the book myself.
In regards to Berz's version of the prologue: I'm uncertain about the touchy matter of Míriel's death. Seems too swiftly done. I do agree with you that the houses of Finwë need to be distinguished as early as possible, but........I don't know! I don't think it was given enough time and explanation....argh curse my inarticulative-ness.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 20, 2004 2:47:20 GMT -5
Mm-kay. Tell you what. I'll sit in my happy fantasy world of All Shall Love My Script And Despair, and then everyone else can edit it into some sort of usable fotmat. (Yes, actually, I am being serious with that. I am /useless/ at editing, I think everything should be written perfectly first time through. I'm trying to break that, but it's not working...)
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Post by Chronicler on Nov 20, 2004 11:27:58 GMT -5
Mm-kay. Tell you what. I'll sit in my happy fantasy world of All Shall Love My Script And Despair, and then everyone else can edit it into some sort of usable fotmat. (Yes, actually, I am being serious with that. I am /useless/ at editing, I think everything should be written perfectly first time through. I'm trying to break that, but it's not working...) I'll help ye edit. I'm getting quite good at that, actually. One little note: maybe the stuff about the Lamps could be shortened? Squished? Only mentioned? I would think the Trees would be the more important light-givers, just because they helped cause a lot of the trouble later on (Darkening, the Silmarils). Just a thought. ~ Chronicler ~
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Elianna
Journyer
Isn't Eldarion adorable!
Posts: 46
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Post by Elianna on Nov 20, 2004 20:04:37 GMT -5
Review of Scenes 2-5: So Fëanor wants to make a light bulb? silly little elf Just to make sure, and to annoy you: Was Nerdanel called Nerdanel before being called 'Danel? I think Nerdanel should say "the tilkal (sp?) Aulë made" not "that tilkal stuff." I know elves do use the word "stuff" but....please? Good characters. I don't hate Fëanor right away, that's good, I supose. My thoughts on the Two Lamps: We've already extablished that Morgoth is a baddie, but I don't want to leave them out altogether...maybe just call them the Two Lamps? At least that would clear up confusion on their names and the names of the islands they're on.
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Post by Huinesoron on Nov 21, 2004 10:18:55 GMT -5
Elianna...
I've now made a couple-three changes, so I can say that /now/, Nerdanel is called Nerdanel on her first appearence. She also says 'the tilkal Aule made'.
And I've also cut out the names of the Lamps, but not in the directions. They're no longer named in the voiceover, though.
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